Cedar table

[anne]

I am a rank amateur with a very old (more than 100 years) cedar table. I have removed the grime and the old finish using methylated spirits and fine steel wool and now need to refinish the top. I do not want to french polish as we use the table as a kitchen table. One recommendation is danish oil followed by beeswax. Is there a better solution?

[astrid]

what you you mean by a better solution?
If you mean a harder finish the your only option is a pollyeurothane.
But this wont give the same old lustre as shellac and danish oil.

its a balence between beauty and practicality.

I've used cabot danish oil(which is 95% sinthetic on all my clients tables.
With reasonable care it lasts well.
you cant put a superheated coffee mug on it, but you shouldnt do that to anything unless its a two pac polly, which will look ugly on a 100yo cedar table.

Astrid

[anne]

Thank you Astrid. I am very nervous about using shellac as I have no idea what to do. Is there a web site or similar where I can get "How to" information?

[Lumber Bunker]

You might want to go with a "Hard Shellac" made by our great hosts, and available in most woodworking stores (such as ours) see here.
It's a shellac that is much more durable.

Good Luck.

Steve

[astrid]

Using shellac is not the same as french polishing if thats your worry.
French polishing is a technique used to apply shellac for a super glassier finish and definatly not suitable for a kitchen table.

Shellac can simply be brushed on with a very fine haired brush,
I use a MANICARE face powder brush.
If you decide to use shellac either ordinary or the superior and harder Ubeaut product, ill post some tips.
However, I think that even the Ubeaut white shellac would be unsuitable for a kitchen table (someone please correct me if i'm wrong)

Id go with the cabots danish oil.

Astrid
PS do Ubeaut have a wipe on poly?

[Evan Pavlidis]

I am a rank amateur with a very old (more than 100 years) cedar table. I have removed the grime and the old finish using methylated spirits and fine steel wool and now need to refinish the top. I do not want to french polish as we use the table as a kitchen table. One recommendation is danish oil followed by beeswax. Is there a better solution?

Hello Anne,

I would give it 2 coats of thin dewaxed super blonde shellac with a brush sanding very lightly with 2000 grit paper between coats after it is completly dry. The first coat will dry in about 20 minutes. This will act as a sealer. If you go with an oil finish on bare red cedar it will darken too much and obscure the natural color and not look like red cedar at all.
I've done in it in the past and regretted it. I made a large coffee table for a friend of the family using a red cedar slab, applied 2 coats of dewaxed shellac, let dry overnight after the last coat, sanded lightly and then applied a mixture of raw tung oil and orange oil. The ratio is 50/50. I applied 8 coats rubbing in well and allowing 24 hours drying between coats. It came up very well and the red cedar retained its color and it's stunning lustre. Our friend is very happy with the result.
When applying the mixture it is not necessary to flood the piece; just enough to cover the area, leave for about 10-15 minutes and with a clean cloth rub in hard until no mixture remains. Leave for 24 hours and repeat until you are satisfied. The more coats the better.
You can apply a good quality wax after your last oil coat to create some protection and the lustre you are looking for. But do this after 1 week to allow the finish to cure. A slight wet look without a high gloss looks really good on cedar. The good thing about oil and wax is that they are very forgiving; if you scratch your surface you can lightly cut away the affected area with steel wool and reapply the oil blending in with the surround. You cannot do this with polyurethane . I have not used danish on red cedar and cannot comment.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Evan

[astrid]

this sounds good. but i'd be worried about waxing a table that will be exposed to kitchen wear, id leave the wax off
sorry forgot to mention that if you used DO seal with shellac first,
as i said, cabots DO is not really an oil but wipe on polly dosent darken timber too much like oil and can be re coated

Astrid

[anne]

Thank you Evan and Astrid. Any tips on using shellac would be great.
Cheers
Anne

[astrid]

Applying shellac is pretty simple.
But the way you brush it on is different from paint
PRACTICE THE BRUSH STROKES FIRST on a scrap of smooth timber.
Then my rather muddled instruction will make sense and you'll work it out yourself.


Get a very soft round brush, about 2-3cm I buy face powder brushes from the chemist.
Try to get the MANICARE brand as their glue doesn't disolve in spirits.
soak you brush in meths and remove any loose hairs.
Dry excess meths off the brush
Put about 300ml of your shellac into a wide mouthed jar,
peanut butter jars are good
dip the brush in the shellac so theres enough to wet the brush but no drips.

tips are in italic

shellac will touch dry almost immediatly if you let one stroke dry before you apply the next, youll get a darker line where the two strokes touch.
This is because the first stroke is already dry and you have effectively put 2 coats in a line where the two strokes overlap.

you have to apply it in one long, even stroke from one end of the table to the other, with the grain. flick the brush upward at the end of the stroke or youll get a ridge or bleed back at the end.

because you dont want a double coat at the edge of your first stroke, apply the next stroke slightly overlapping the first, in the other direction.
As the first coat will still be wet (your being quick remember) the second stroke blends with the edge of the first rather than sitting on top of it.
Work your way across the practice piece backwards and forward.
when youve finished this first coat let dry for about an hour.

What im trying to explain is that once you start the first coat, you cant stop mid stroke or in the middle of the table.

If you miss a bit dont go back, leave it to the next coat or immediatly reapply that whole strip.

At the begining of your stroke, dont drag the brush across the edge of the table , better start the stroke a centimeter from the edge and catch the bare spot on the back stroke.

Now get a piece of 400 grit sand paper, cut it in half and rub the two rough sides together this is to knock off any rough grains that might scratch you polish.
using the paper lightly in your fingers, (dont use a sanding block) gently buff the first coat with the grain to knock off any dust or loose brush hairs.

As we aren't french polishing, youll get away with one or two imperfections.

Now off you go on the next coat.

It really Isnt that hard its just getting the knack of the strokes and understanding how the medium works.

DONT USE SHELLAC ON A DAY THAT IS HIGH HUMIDITY OR DAMP

dosent matter on the first two coats but it can react with moisture the while its drying at later stages.

Well I know the guys will shake their heads at my girly instructions.
but I've tried to explain in baby steps.

Any administrators who polish, feel free to edit

good luck

Astrid

[anne]

Astrid thank you very much. I have now put on 2 coats of shellac and it looks great. Now I have to start oiling.

Thank you eveyone for your help. This is a great web site.

Anne

[Evan Pavlidis]

Astrid thank you very much. I have now put on 2 coats of shellac and it looks great. Now I have to start oiling.

Thank you eveyone for your help. This is a great web site.

Anne

Anne, good to hear. Post some pics as you are progressing; we would like to see your results as we don't often see red cedar pieces.

Cheers, Evan

[anne]

Help!

I have put on 6 coats of the tung oil mixture and the surface, which after 4 coats was uniformly glossy, has gone blotchy as if it has soaked in in some places and not in others. What should I do now?
Anne

[rsser]

Six coats is really more than is needed.

How long did you leave it btwn coats?

Suggest you leave it to cure for a week and then see.

[MacS]

What look and sheen do you get from using the Hard Shellac. Is it like the Polyurethanes.

To other posters,what is the benefits of using Shellac under danish oil?

When one is evaportive and the other is reactive. Shellac is the softer coating, and as it evaporates as it shrinks downs, whereas, the DO once cured, builds up a to a better base, which builds up a better finish . The DO will probally give better protection for a table that is being used daily to eat on.

I cannot compare DO to the Hard Shellac, as I never used or tested it, maybe some one can answer that question.

[Evan Pavlidis]

Help!

I have put on 6 coats of the tung oil mixture and the surface, which after 4 coats was uniformly glossy, has gone blotchy as if it has soaked in in some places and not in others. What should I do now?
Anne

What Ern says Anne. What grit paper did you use to sand back the shellac base? From memory another poster advised you to use 400 grit which is too coarse, and by doing so you probably sanded more in one area than another going to bare timber. If this is the case the oil on bare timber will result in a different tone and can go blotchy. Is the blotchiness visible only in some areas and not others? Only use 1500 or 2000 grit paper to denib after applying the shellac base. Denibbing means to "knock off" the sharp ridges caused by the raising of grain after the shellac has dried. The whole principle behind this is to create a uniform ultra smooth surface to apply the finish of choice. The application of shellac as a base is to prevent blotching and reduce the darkening of oil on wood which can be very prominent on red cedar.

For now, with a clean cloth rub down hard; chances are that the tung oil did not dry properly before subsequent coats were applied.
Wait 2 days and rub down hard with mineral turps, let dry completely and sand lightly along the grain with 2000 grit paper only. Then remove all dust and reapply tung oil mixture, wait 10 minutes and again rub down hard and let dry thoroughly before applying further coats.
Can you specify what tung oil mixture you are using. If using raw tung oil neat, it takes at least 5 days to dry per coat and more to cure.
If you need more help we're here for you.

P.S. It's ok to use a sanding block or pad. You can buy these with a handle from bunnings or an auto parts shop in different sizes.

Cheers, Evan