100% Metho

[Marc]

My father had a cabinet making shop where they use to manufacture classic reproduction furniture, or like I use to say, my father makes antiques ... hehe

I must have made thousands of litres of shellac in the 10 or so years I worked in the shop. We used it as a sealant to cover the red "boldo" before applying the varnish we used as adhesive for the gold layer, gilding I think we say in English. After we gave another coat of shellac on top of the gold, again to seal it in order to be able to apply "patina" that was turps based and would have removed the gold without it.

Now we use to buy industrial alcohol or "Paint alcohol" that was ethanol but exempted from tax, but I doubt it was any higher grade than 95. It came in 20 litre drums.
In wet days, and in Buenos Aires wet means 90% humidity, just after applying the shellac the whole job became cloudy yellow nearly white. Yet such never bothered me, I knew it would go away once dry. I never had a problem and the job looked just as if that never happened.

Ergo ... I ask what is the problem in using lower grade alcohol, be it with or whithout the addition of methanol? Is it realy that bad if you get the cloudy thing happening?

[Bob Willson]

My mother French polished a small table top for me a short while ago and the finish turned out very streaky and cloudy. A week later I just wiped it all over with a bit of ordinary meths on a tissue and it came up great.

[Neil]

Oldblock - What that MSDS tells me is that there could be as little as 6.01% ethanol content and as much as 20% other additives (Water, methanol, colour and taste). I suppose you could say it's <> correct. However, no matter which way I look at it, it still doesn't quite add up. Maybe I'm missing something. I still say, don't believe everything you read in all MSDS's.

In many instances an MSDS is a sketch of the product used as a guideline, of how to safely handle the goods, emergency procedures, toxicity levels, etc. They are not a complete breakdown of the products structure. This is why that MSDS is so open with its percentages. It is not a true reflection of 100% IMS. Which as a rule (in Australia) is 97.9 - 99.92% pure alcohol depending upon the supplier.

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Water in Methylated Spirits can cause big problems when it comes to mixing down your shellac. Sometimes as little as 5% can retard or even stop the melting process of the shellac flakes. In the hundreds of classes we ran over many years we never had a problem dissolving shellac in the pure stuff, however if a student decided to bring their own (not pure) metho, there would almost always be a problem.

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Moisture drawn into the polish (from humidity etc) whilst working isn't really a major problem and can be overcome pretty easily as Bob said. However moisture that is trapped deep in the finish under many layers can cause a problem down the track. Especially when it is on raw timber.

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Coating boldo (called bole in Australia) isn't too much of a worry as it usually isn't as apparent, because as Marc said it is used as a base for a varnish or glue prior to applying the gold leaf. Often there is enough moisture still in the gesso and bole to cause the shellac to bloom even if there isn't any water in the metho.

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In the end, it all boils down to what you want from your work. If you are striving for excellence, you won't get it using second rate materials. If you are happy with second best then so be it. There are no hard and fast rules. What I try to do is give you the best solution to a problems as I see it. What you choose do with that information is purely up to you.

Hope this is of some help to someone. If not .................... Oh well.

Cheers - Neil

PS Marc In australia it is virtually impossible to purchase ethanol that is not denatured. Just about takes an act of parliment, you can only buy a small quantity and every drop has to be accounted for. They don't want anyone to make their drinks out of the stuff and not pay the piper.

[Bob Willson]

PS Marc In australia it is virtually impossible to purchase ethanol that is not denatured. Just about takes an act of parliment, you can only buy a small quantity and every drop has to be accounted for. They don't want anyone to make their drinks out of the stuff and not pay the piper.

Can you make your own?

[echnidna]

I can remeber buying 4 litres of metho in the supermarket a few years ago and it smelled like a real nice red wine, didnt try it out though.
Can you get .05 by just shellacking or french polishing?

[Bob Willson]

I see that you are from Victoria Echnidna. Try some of the wines from South Australia and then compare them with the metho. I will be interested in an up-to-date comparison.

[Ian007]

Bob

Out of curiosity are you saying that SA wine is lacking in quality?? :confused:

or have you only brought the cheep and nasty stuff to try!!

Cheers Ian

[AlexS]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cheap South Australian wines...They've been some of my best breakfasts!

[vsquizz]

Meth or eth based products are hygroscopic but not particularly so in normal use; eg they need direct contact or, to gain significant moisture from air, they would need to be sprayed in a fine mist, as in meth/water injection in turbocharger systems. Old trick for water in your fuel tank was to add a cup of metho and thus burn the water.

Some petrochemical industry standards which were in employ in Australia have been dumped in favour of others, modified or relaxed totally. Some substances are now more highly regulated and others have been "reclassified" ergo the MSDS variables. An example is unleaded petrol. Japanese car manufacturers used to be able to, and some still do, make asumptions about ULP in Australia being of at least 90.3 octane or higher. ULP sold in Australia is now 88 to 91 octane (we hope). Having been out of this field for awhile I am not entirely sure about how this affects garden variety meths but a few things I have seen tend to suggest that the quality may vary greatly from batch and manufacturer.

The reaction of an alcohol based substance and water in the prescence of certain organic compounds (such as phosphates) will intially result in the milky/cloudy effect. This may disappear if a) the moisture and solvents can dissapate and b) there is insufficient organics (and oxygen) to support the next stage of the reaction, which is biological (yes bugs). Phosphates can be freely available in cleaning compounds, detergents and mineral oils.

So what does all that waffle mean? Three things:
1) use the best products you can
2) keep everything meticulously clean
3) if your on the turps don't get too close to the campfire

[echnidna]

I dont think there are many small wineries that distil spirits so I assumed it was probably South Australian (being the largest wine producers) as it must have been the wood alcohol residues left over from distilling brandy. But it did smell real nice, but not for me from a metho bottle.

[journeyman Mick]

In australia it is virtually impossible to purchase ethanol that is not denatured. Just about takes an act of parliment, you can only buy a small quantity and every drop has to be accounted for. They don't want anyone to make their drinks out of the stuff and not pay the piper.

I have a few sources (friends of friends of friends) who sell the stuff, 2 litres at a time, no names, no questions and cash only.

Mick

[echnidna]

Drinking alcohol is easy enough to make,
The skill is distilling it so the methanol is discarded.
(Then we mix shellac with the non drinkables).

BTW a still is legal in oz for home use if it has a capacity below 4.5 litres.
But that dont make much booze.

I brewed up 20 litres of vodka wash once, but got thirsty before I got finished making the still so I drank the wash without distilling it, its really just a very strong wine - a bit rough on the way down, after 3 glasses I had to go to bed as I couldnt sit on a chair without falling off. It was a spirit wash somewhere around 35% proof.
Never did finish the still, maybe one day.

[journeyman Mick]

Bob,
is that 4.5 litres total capacity of the pot? (asks he who was hoping to use a 15 litre urn as the base for a still).

Micxk (hic, why isn't there a drunken smilie )

[echnidna]

Yes total capacity is 4.5 litres, so after you boil the water off there isnt much left after the first round. If you use Distillers yeast you can brew to about 35% proof so you bypass the first boil.

[echnidna]

Mick, The main thing about a still is to cook it as slowly as possible as the ethyl alcohol boils at a slightly lower temerature than the methyl alcohol and a few other nasties. And dont use the last 5-10% as it will be concentrated nasties.