The Great Work Con

[wheelinround]

Over the last few years I have been reading about people and work matters business and governments getting people back to work.

Its an interesting subject with not enough nurses, police, engineers, general dogs bodies etc, apprentice, teachers etc etc.

Every state is sourcing from other states, to fill the gaps.
Business with promises of better incentives yet they are passing over their own.

Small business people who are leaving to go else where. Workers and non workers are no different, lifestyle promises, cheaper this and that.

I have done the City to Bush move and back some years ago, a change of state government caused the move back. Jobs went out the window, prospects for many young people in the town and surrounds diminished.

So like always Australia heads overseas ( the whole world is doing the same) bring in those willing to work then turn around and tell them they are not qualified, this happens with our own who move interstate also.

Yet I read on this forum members looking for work, employers looking for workers we even have our own employment section now . Some have had success others none at all. Others stay in jobs they hate fearful of leaving for many reasons.

Me I'd be happy to set up a small business from home, if I had my own home doubt we could ever afford one again. Regulations, hidden fee's and taxes and cost do not permit many of the types of things I could do.

I was going to pose a few questions but feel it better left open and make comments as you feel.

[Andy Mac]

Pretty open ended thread, so I'll add something I heard recently which I found interesting. A work colleague, a lecturer, has recently spent several months in Europe on long service leave. Stayed in France mostly where a sibling jointly owns a house in the country, but also time in Germany and Greece (lucky bugger).
On their return home, catching up with friends, it hit them how obsessed Australians are with money. Conversations always centred around real estate, jobs and promotions, interest rates etc, whereas in France the most common topic is food! She also said houses seemed cheaper in Germany than Australia, which contradicts what I've heard...that in most European cities few people can afford a house, they mostly rent all their life.
Here, in a country where home ownership is the be all and end all (and untill recently, possible for most), this has seemed strange to me, but if the pressure to actually own a house is removed other things would take over in importance - like food, art even!!
Is there a pressure to own your own house here, regardless of the risk? Is it real; is it peer induced or mandated from above; financial or a cultural thing? Do we somehow become inadequate if we don't? The reason I pose these questions is that without the mortgage debt most of us have, we could take work and careers a lot less seriously. You know play more, smell the roses...

Cheers,

[nev25]

Yeah IMO its a sad state of affairs
The government is (supposable) pouring money into training people for jobs that don't exist.

I'm in an area in Victoria where the majority of the electricity for Vic is generated.
When the SEC was privatized the local real estate price when rock bottom.
That created cheap rental property which in-turn (as much as I hate to say) attracted lower class areas to become almost slum areas Crime rate went up those with smarts and money moved away.

But instead of helping (financially) get industry and businesses back here they pore money into training Kids for jobs that don't exist.
And the unemployed still have to apply for X amount of jobs a week to get the dole.

And yes I'm an Electrical Contractor with no work on at all and haven't for a week.
My phone rang once this week and that was for a Quote for a Job that they didn't really wont done anyway.
And I regularly get phone calls from employment agents wanting me to take on an Apprentice.
What with no work I say.

And don't get me started on Employment agents thats the biggest wrought around


I'm off my soap box now

[Big Shed]

Andy, wouldn't that depend entirely on the type of people you mix with whilst overseas?

I don't think you can generalise like "French people are more interested in food than owning a house". I'm sure there are French people like that, just like there are Australians that are more interested in food (latte even!) than owning a house and what interest rates are like.

Let me give you an example, almost identical to yours, but opposite. Two friends of ours, younger and still in the workforce, one a nurse the other a teacher, went for a holiday to Ireland. Stayed in Dublin with a friend of hers. Couldn't get over the cost of housing in Dublin, so expensive and so small comapred to Oz. They came back and said all Irish people ever talk about is how much their house is worth now, who owns the latest Merc or BMW!

I'm sure it is the circles they moved in whilst there, and not all Irish people are like that.

If people don't buy their own house in Australia, and there is no law that says you have to, they pay a rent not that far removed from the cost of servicing a mortgage, so how does that allow them to "smell the roses"? In addition, they will pay that rent until the day they part this earth.

If on the other hand they buy a house, manage their money properly and pay the mortgage off within, say, 20 years, they then live rent free in their appreciating asset, not someone else's appreciating asset paying ever increasing rent.

We haven't paid rent or mortgage payments for over 20 years and have put that money to good use, allowing us to retire early and "smell the roses"!

Andy, your eply to Wheelin, and indeed my reply to you, doesn't address the concerns expressed by Wheelin.
I will reply to Wheelins' concerns in another post, have to get back to the shed and smell the roses, just finished lunch and not a latte in sight!

[Eli]

My wife's family (Australian) has a lot of renters in it. My wife had never lived in a house that was owned, was always a renter. When we began to talk seriously about starting a family, I told her I would never have a kid without owning a house first, as a lot of peers in LA had had kids first and never caught up. She didn't see the logic but went along with me. It was a lot of work and we sometimes struggled with the mortgage, which was astronomically high.

Owning and improving the house in LA was what allowed us to be able to move back here, and is what has allowed us to buy again, not to mention get a car and new tools . After five years in the house in LA, I was so depressed to live in the rental house in Melbourne. I'd intended on buying as soon as we landed, but it took six months to make a successful offer. I've mostly moped around the garage, with nothing to do, although I was willing to work was unable to because of immigration.

Because we were in a rental I was deprived of the other pastime work I was accustomed to. After all, it doesn't make sense to put work into a rental unless it's yours. That still didn't stop me from plastering the garage, but that's another story. Having time off doesn't mean anything to me without having some hobby work to do. Situations are different for everyone, and I consider myself very lucky to have owned one house, let alone have the opportunity to have another (and it is not that close to town, although it isn't bush).

Changing my entire life has made me not take things as seriously. But I was lucky to be able to make that change. I would always choose to own a house, and SWMBO is no different now having been a veteran homeowner. I'll do whatever it takes to have one, and I even hope to maybe develop some add'l property at some point in the future. I don't think there is really a better way to increase wealth than property if you do it right. And a lot of people don't do it right, so there's always room for more comers.

I think everyone in today's society is obsessed with money, not just Australians. It has a lot to do with the media's portrayal of the rich. It isn't commensurate with reality, and I think the real estate situation in the US is the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's coming.

If you look at the JLC online construction forums every single one of those guys is tightening his belt getting ready for a deep freeze on work. My suspicion is it's going to end up here eventually, so you may well have your chance to buy real estate in another few years. Don't give up hope at all. The pros are getting their cash ready.

[Andy Mac]

Andy, wouldn't that depend entirely on the type of people you mix with whilst overseas?

I don't think you can generalise like "French people are more interested in food than owning a house". I'm sure there are French people like that, just like there are Australians that are more interested in food (latte even!) than owning a house and what interest rates are like.

Let me give you an example, almost identical to yours, but opposite. Two friends of ours, younger and still in the workforce, one a nurse the other a teacher, went for a holiday to Ireland. Stayed in Dublin with a friend of hers. Couldn't get over the cost of housing in Dublin, so expensive and so small comapred to Oz. They came back and said all Irish people ever talk about is how much their house is worth now, who owns the latest Merc or BMW!

I'm sure it is the circles they moved in whilst there, and not all Irish people are like that.

If people don't buy their own house in Australia, and there is no law that says you have to, they pay a rent not that far removed from the cost of servicing a mortgage, so how does that allow them to "smell the roses"? In addition, they will pay that rent until the day they part this earth.

If on the other hand they buy a house, manage their money properly and pay the mortgage off within, say, 20 years, they then live rent free in their appreciating asset, not someone else's appreciating asset paying ever increasing rent.

We haven't paid rent or mortgage payments for over 20 years and have put that money to good use, allowing us to retire early and "smell the roses"!

Andy, your eply to Wheelin, and indeed my reply to you, doesn't address the concerns expressed by Wheelin.
I will reply to Wheelins' concerns in another post, have to get back to the shed and smell the roses, just finished lunch and not a latte in sight!

Hi Big Shed,
You're no doubt correct, huge generalisation, and I did think that this person is basically on holiday, so moving in a different sphere than the average worker despite being immersed in village life. She said something about life being so much simpler there, but I did make the comment that lif'es always simpler without going to work every day! But I do think that it takes a step back/out of a culture to look back in and see what makes it tick. And I stand by the comment that we are fixated with money!
As for your last comment, I really don't know where Wheelin' was coming from exactly, just that his thoughts were on the job market, and made me think straight away that maybe the whole job situation is too important, too much of a worry in our lives.
As for the rental vs mortgage thing, the balance was once in rental's favour, especially out of the big cities. I know 'cos I rented for 22yrs or so, with some real bargains...like houses on farms. It obviously helps when sharing rentals, not for your family situation! I'm now on the mortgage treadmill, but well below the average so it means one breadwinner to get by. However, I honestly can't see myself paying it off before I die, so work somewhere, somehow, will always be a reality.

Cheers,

[woodbe]

Andy, I think you have hit the nail on the head regarding rental vs buy.

The bargain in renting is to share the place with like minded, paying souls - and you get off cheap while you slowly get on each other's nerves. The best plan is to time your departure before the real nastiness begins.

Unless you can turn up an accidental bargain like the farmhouse close to the city or the ignorant owner who neither needs or cares about the returns on the property, as soon as you want to be the sole occupant, with or without your family, you might as well find a place to buy. After all, the owner is looking to pay his mortgage and other costs from the proceeds of the rental, so why should he give, and we expect, a cheap rent?

woodbe.

[wheelinround]

Thanks Andy, Nev, Eli, Big Shed you are all on the right track.

Andy I believe your right obsession with money and prestige etc leads to. I worked my butt off till I crashed with Chronic Fatiuge paying mortgage etc. Back then I got so close to owning the house, we bought a land cruiser instead. Sold and moved to greener pastures a home we owned outright. Moved again and rented the property out, sold it wouldn't have if real estate agents hadn't been dishonest done their job (another story).

Our time there in the country gave us the time to smell the roses and the manure that permiated the air.

Your friends who went OS saw people who were happy with their lot, but had they ever traveled OS and experienced other cultures. Many Europeans live in family homes for generations unlike Aussies who need there space, privacy and own castle.
Many of us are like various animals once they reach an age we shove the out of the nest go build their own.

With renting now its a case of over regulation due to mungrels who don't care for other peoples property, you cant even hang pictures in some cases hows that supposed to make you feel its a home.

Nev We saw this in the country town we lived in reality was there was nothing to be had the companies closed their doors within 3 years one went OS. Work experience days kids attend from school have become a joke not allowed to do much at all. All my 3 children did theirs prior the new regulations came in all business thought they did well enough to pay them for the 2 weeks work they did the school found out and demanded they pay it back. The bosses told them to keep it.

Big Shed Andy's comments are worth reading it shows the difference standards as do your mentioned of the Irish visit. You both mention about your feeling towards home ownership. unfortunately not to work matters although you both have in another post spoke of your work lives.

[elkangorito]

Work in any "over developed" country is a con. This was the primary reason why I left Amstralia...or is that Ausmerica?

I got so fed up with being flogged to death for every little thing, every second. There was never enough time in any day to finish your work to a degree that you could say, "I'm proud of that job."
If I could've managed to find an employer willing to allow me to do my job, maybe I would have been happier but methinks not. Now, the "shareholder" is involved in many businesses. They demand results, even if it means that some people take shortcuts then others spend all their time covering up the shortcuts. ???? flows downhill.

I've lived in 3 other countries besides Amstralia & Amstralia is the worst. The life there is all about the dollar & not like it used to be 20 or so years ago, when people were happy to help each other & the onus was on enjoyment. Back then, you never ever saw anything to do with the stockmarket on telly.
With regard to the last 8 years in Australia (2.5 of those years I spent in wonderful Thailand), I was so exhausted after work that I never had the energy to go out & enjoy myself. The phone that was bolted to me 24 hours a day didn't help.
I even tried to get a lesser paying job to no avail. "Over qualified" was always the result. What if I lied? I they ever found out that you lied about you work history, your bum is grass.

I'm glad I'm out of there!! And I shall not be returning! I am poor here but infinitely happier. No more work stress. Lots of fun. Geez, I smile all the time now. BTW, I was an abnormal 85kg in Ausmerica but within 3 months of living in Thailand & without any change to drinking or eating habits, my weight went back to my normal level of 70kg. Also, all the unexplainable rashes on my legs disappeared & my gingivitis totally cleared up.

What does that tell you?

[markharrison]

And yes I'm an Electrical Contractor with no work on at all and haven't for a week. My phone rang once this week and that was for a Quote for a Job that they didn't really wont done anyway.

Seriously, you need to move. A friend of mine (also an electrician) moved to the Wide Bay area (near Bundaberg) from the Sunshine Coast (!) in Queensland for a quiet life. He only wanted to work two days a week and now he is working five and turning work away.

Then of course, there are the mines. Electricians earn top dollars but of course it is remote and housing is expensive and hard to come by.

The Sunshine Coast (where I was born) has been ruined by development which is why he left. As I like to say about the Coast: In everyone's rush to get away from it all, they brought it all with them!

[astrid]

On renting V buying
a lot of property in continental Europe is rent controled and people get very long leases and treat the place as home.
EG Amsterdam, its almost impossiabe to rent as a foreiger, as there are strict controls on residency.
locals can rent, but landlords cant hike the rent up when they feel like it.
This is to stop rich foreigers taking over the old city centers.
If your in the corporate rental market, the rent on the few properties available is so high that only overseas business can afford them.
EG $3500 per month for a nice but not luxury flat on the outskirts.

where it is true that more young people want to own their own in northern europe where space is tight.
in the south(and outside the cities) rent ond house prices are cheap.
France is a good example,
You can buy a 16 square house in a small french town for about 150,000 euro and only be half an hour from a large town .

sure it may not have a home move theatre, but this is france and who would want one!!

Astrid

[Sturdee]

EG Amsterdam, its almost impossible to rent as a foreigner, as there are strict controls on residency.

True, unless of course you are now a foreigner but born in A'dam and returning, then you get the pick of the crop as a matter of priority.


Peter.

[bitingmidge]

Consumerism, Jobs, House owning, we've had it too good for too long:

Watch the movie here (about five minutes) and then tell me how hard it is to get work, or own a house or buy a plasma tele.

P