Electrical work, US versus Oz

[rileyp]

Just so happens Im not scared of ???? either.........I did my apprenticeship at a sewage treatment plant where it smelt no so great in primary treatment ...and also worked on pumping stations where we would have to wash and sometimes replace the well floats/multitrodes and submersible pumps unblock them/rebuild to maintain them.
Thing is Ive done my time working in ?????? smelly holes and crawling thought Joe bloggs crap ceiling space.I am now in a position where I can pick and choose where I work and who I work for so I do. The company I work for does build sewage panels as well and I do install and commishion them from time to time and some of the work we do is crappy but most days its pretty clean apart form the concrete,brick,plaster and tile dust and so I think my job is dirty enough without getting a nosefull of black ???? and fibreglass rash up and down my arms and legs as well.
Most sparkies arent afraid of getting their hands dirty they just dont want to to get into your 60 degree fibreglass hell hole.And lets face it it is.
If you rip the ceilings down the sparky will do a 100% better job and it will take 1/2 the time.
Thing is people think sparkies are super human and just because 40 years ago people did dumb jobs we still should today?
40 years ago it was safe to work in Witternoon to and spray everyone with ddt!

[silentC]

If you rip the ceilings down the sparky will do a 100% better job and it will take 1/2 the time

That's a big call. Are you saying that a sparky would do a sub-standard job in what he considered to be less than optimal conditions? I'd have assumed everything would be done to code, regardless

No-one thinks sparkies are super human. Far from it. Put it this way, I wouldn't expect someone to do anything that I'd not be prepared to do myself. I think ripping down ceilings is a bit extreme if all you wanted was a new power point - and that's what I'm talking about here. It's the sort of job people do themselves because it's so hard (apparently) to get a sparky to do it. That's where the gap between regulations and reality occurs.

[rileyp]

Im not saying for 1 power point Im saying for a complete rewire in an old house where all the electrics are just a patchwork quilt of old ???? and repairs.
And perhaps I boasted when I said 100% but of far superior finish.
The lights can be looped at the switch which is far better when you go to change a light fitting! Every sparky knows the only decent light fitting is a standard battern holder or plug base.Unfortunately most light fittings have no facility for more than 3 wires (active neutral and earth).
When a house is rewired and the lights are looped at the light you can end up with up to 12 wires or more at a lame light fitting. The result of this is a junction box in the ceiling or a heap of connectors in your light where the wires will be exposed to the light. Junction boxes do overcome this but require crawling back into to the ceiling and are considered in the industry a patch up item.
A lot are done not to code as is just to hard to sit in someones roof and put on clips.
The corners cut are minor but cut just the same.
Eg not mechanically protectiing a cable where it crosses a structural member that could be stood on.(this would require cutting a battern and nailing/screwing to the ceiling rafters then clippping the offending cable to the side of it!
Sounds like fun dosent it?How many sparkies keep timber in thr back of their van?
Most of the cables are just tucked under the batts which is fine as long as long as the installer understands the cable is installed (totally enclosed in bulk insulation) and derates the cable accordingly.
That means that 1.0mm cable is good for 7 amps!
and 1.5mm 9 amps!
When a house is wired without plaster the cables are clipped to the timber and are considered to be only partially surrounded in bulk insulation and the cable has a higher current carrying capacity.

[Cliff Rogers]

New regulations due in next year ....

I got my set of AS NZS 3000-2007 Wiring Rules this arvo.
$113.40 in .pdf format.

463 pages, I haven't read them yet.

[elkangorito]

A long time ago, I was also an electrical contractor but quickly got out of the game. Why? The biggest reason was that people didn't want to pay on time! They seemed to have the idea, "It's only $200...surely he can wait a bit." Well, as we all know, when 10 people owe you $200, it's no longer a small problem...especially if you're a "one man band".

The 2nd biggest reason was that most people seemed to think that I was trying to rip them off when I told them that I couldn't add that new power circuit to the old rubber wiring system because the rest of the wiring had to be updated according to code. What I had to do was rewire the house...& I was happy to do that. What happened? They ended up getting a "cowboy" electrician who would break the rules (& jeopardise his business & peoples lives) & do the bodgy installation.

I remember one job in which I had to design the control cubicles for a couple of freezer rooms, for a local & very successful business (for seafood). To do this, I had to liaise with the fridgy to find out how he wanted things to operate. From this, I was able to design the control circuitry & build the cubicles, which I did by myself. Not only this, I had to run a new set of mains (3 phase) from an existing main board to the freezer rooms & install a distribution board. All of this took me about a month to complete. The bill came to about $7 000.00. After not receiving any payment in a month, I contacted them & was told that the bill was too high (the job was "do & charge") & that they would not be paying. I asked "why?". The answer was, "We've just had some 3 phase outlets installed in our shop & they only cost $700.00."
I couldn't believe this! These people were somehow comparing apples with oranges & no matter what I did, I couldn't get them to see this.
When the dust had settled, I just managed to cover my costs. This was the last job I ever did as a contractor.

Just as a converse comparison, here in Thailand, labour is cheap & therefore the quality of work is crap. An unskilled construction worker, who is required to do tasks ranging from tiling to concreting to welding to whatever you can think of, gets paid about 200 Baht (said "bart") per day. This equates to about AUD$60.00.
Electricians, if you can find a "real" one, are paid up to about 300 Baht per hour (AUD$10.00) although most charge a lot less than this. Most of the "tradesmen", & I use this term loosely, are happy to get any kind of work...& they never complain. The problem is that if they don't like the work, they will stop turning up for work, AFTER having started the job. This does not happen often & is usually the result of a family problem, which is much more important than any job. They usually get a "friend" to continue the work but this "friend" usually knows bugger all about what they are doing.

[rileyp]

Better run back out again and grab aAS3008 for you cable selection

[Cliff Rogers]

Better run back out again and grab aAS3008 for you cable selection

Which version?
Has that just been updated too?

[nev25]

No-one thinks sparkies are super human.

I disagree to an extent
Ive been called many time to install a GPO of a fan control on a wall after the plaster has been installed.

When I tell the client there is noggins in the wall that I have to somehow get cable though.
They look at me with a blank expression and usually say something like "your the electrician".
My usual reponse is "Yeah an electrician not a magician"



Gee Cliff you are quick AS/NZ 3000-2007 was only released today I believe
I'm going to a info night Wednesday to be told of the new changes

[elkangorito]

I got my set of AS NZS 3000-2007 Wiring Rules this arvo.
$113.40 in .pdf format.

463 pages, I haven't read them yet.

Just got my'n too

[elkangorito]

I disagree to an extent
Ive been called many time to install a GPO of a fan control on a wall after the plaster has been installed.

When I tell the client there is noggins in the wall that I have to somehow get cable though.
They look at me with a blank expression and usually say something like "your the electrician".
My usual reponse is "Yeah an electrician not a magician"

Yes, I recall this "attitude" on many occasions. At such times, I've informed the "homeowner" that plastering or such like, will need to be done. The usual comment was, "Why?" After telling them "why", nothing much seemed to happen. No phone calls...nothing. I have no idea what they did, if they did do anything. What happens to these people who suddenly realise that a seemingly simple GPO installation will cost them a plasterer as well? Do they decide to not install the GPO or what?

[silentC]

Haven't you heard of extension bits?

[Cliff Rogers]

...Gee Cliff you are quick AS/NZ 3000-2007 was only released today I believe
I'm going to a info night Wednesday to be told of the new changes

I have a subscription service that watchs for updates & tells me as soon as they come out.

[bricks]

Haven't you heard of extension bits?

Just a note, I've found more and more that in newer houses ( 80's onwards) that sparkys and plumbers are running the services horizontally through walls usually between the brick and the stud.( tools), Ps no it's not illegal, it's just lazy.

Plus extension bit's don't work if your on a 2 story house, or if the roof structure is in the way. Even when you can drill the second stud if the wall is insulated or not it can be next to impossible to feed anything through the holes that are made.

Personally I tell customers that "yes I can repair the wall, but i'm not a plasterer and it probably won't be perfect" ( coz it never is, i always seem unhappy with the result).

I'd also like to comment on the attitude of some customers, Personally I've met most of them, the no-payer, the arrogant git, the "i know better than you" etc...etc.. If I get the impression that a customers going to be a PITA then I don't do the work coz it usually cost's me money.

Yes I do dirty jobs ( plumber), no I don't charge the earth, yes I rock up and do a good job.

Another reason that good tradesmen are hard to find is that like myself good tradesman don't advertise at all- word of mouth and a good reputation will keep me in work. Perhaps ask someone else who their tradesman is and you may be pleasantly surprised? I hav'nt advertised for 6 years now.