Advice needed on Water Stained WRC Doors

[rzkman]

Hi everyone,
Its my first post here, so G'day to everyone. Hope to get some ideas on what I should with my bifold doors. They were installed April this year and was a raw finish western red cedar. The same week the were installed we had some rain and I noticed watermarks appearing on the door. The extension where it was installed wasn't waterproof yet. I called the builder and and told him of the water marks. I specifically asked him if the marks will be permanent and whether the door needs to be coated now before more rain comes. The answer I got was 'no', its an external door and by the time they have finished the project the door would be looking like new again. In my ignorance, I believed him.
7 months on, the water marks are still there and the door is still uncoated. It has been through many rain/sunny cycles. I asked the painter if they could wash it with oxalic acid (Intergrain Reviva) and both he and the carpenter advised against it for western red as it was a soft wood and the acid would make it look even worse.
So I am stuck now...They sanded it quite a bit, but the water has really soaked in and many dark patches are visible. It has also made the natural grain of the wood much darker in spots which I don't like.
Knowing that the door costed me and arm and leg, I am determined to fight it all the way..even if this means paying for something to replace the entire thing and taking off the amount in the last payment to the builder. The infuriating thing is that I told the builder right from the start that they should do something to protect the door to prevent future grief, yet I still find myself in this situation.

Cheers,
Ray.

p.s If ppl would like photos of the damaged door, let me know as I have taken some, just just haven't uploaded them anywhere yet.

[aaron.aafjes]

mate, you should have sealed straight away.
sikkens is the only product worth applying at all , and it could probably revive the doors even now.... it costs but it is worth every cent. kind of like buying festool tools versus everything else....... trust me it will work, but do it now!

[pawnhead]

A lot of decent cedar doors come with a light coating (of something ) to protect them from a bit of initial exposure.
I suppose the veracity of your claim would depend on how bad the damage is. Some people can be incredibly fussy, but I'm not suggesting that's the case since there are no pics. It also may be less noticeable when a coating has been applied, but it may stand out even more.
Of course I'm not suggesting that you should settle for a second rate product when you're paying for new, but considering the cost involved in replacement, perhaps some financial settlement would be the best outcome for both yourself and the builder, if your claim is valid.

[rzkman]

Hi John, I appreciate your input. The door came in the raw timber, so it was up to the builder to either coat it or protect it in some other manner. The thing that ticks me off is that even after approaching them several times about my concerns of the door weathering, they brushed me off and said I should stop worrying.

Please find the photos of the door here.
http://rzk.smugmug.com/gallery/3756276

It has been hand sanded and painted with a polyclear finish. Two coats I believe.

Please review and let me know if my concerns are valid.

I have been told that a darker stain will make the watermarks less obvious, but my intention was never to have a dark coloured door. The honey colour of the door now is the probably the darkest I am willing to go.

A financial settlement will be letting these buggers off the hook. If the stains can't be fixed to my satisfaction I will seek further legal advice on how much I can claim for.

As someone said to me, if it bothers me now, it will keep on bothering me everytime I see the door. When I paid more than $7k for the whole unit, I shouldn't have to be anguished everytime I see it.

Cheers,
Ray.

[pawnhead]

As someone said to me, if it bothers me now, it will keep on bothering me everytime I see the door. When I paid more than $7k for the whole unit, I shouldn't have to be anguished everytime I see it.

That's fair enough, and that doesn't look satisfactory to me. The builder should have protected them by taping builders plastic over them until the painter was ready to finish them, or as aaron said, he should have coated them straight away, then put plastic over them to protect them from building works if necessary. Most builders would be very careful with expensive windows.

A light staining would camouflage the watermarks a lot, but it wouldn't hide them totally and they'd still annoy me if I'd paid for a premium product. A clear coating wouldn't do much at all.
They may come out with some heavy machine sanding first, but to do it properly without any ruts, you'd have to remove them, and have them sanded on a big table sander. The stains may go too deep though.

I don't think you can complain about the swirling pattern, and the colour differences. I've seen a lot worse, and you can get a light piece with heavily defined grain right next to a much darker piece with a lot less noticeable grain pattern. There can be a lot of variation with cedar, even within a single piece of timber. You can get those small hairline cracks sometimes, and sometimes with a swirly grained piece, between the growth rings can de-laminate and lift proud of the surface. It's a natural product and you have to live with some imperfections, but it's durable in the weather, although it's very soft and marks easily if it's bumped.

I've never seen anyone use nails on a cedar window, apart from nailing in glazing beads, and then they should be galvanized or stainless steel nails so they don't leave black marks when exposed to weather. Those black marks will be impossible to camouflage and I wouldn't be happy with them at all if I was putting a clear coating on. Unless you maintain the finish in the best condition, as soon as your coating starts to break down, the putty will crack and the black staining will probably grow worse. It's a weak point where the rot will start to set in if it's not looked after.

Not the best news, but I hope this helps you with your dispute.

[Big Shed]

rzkman, had a look at your photos. In my opinion (FWIW) and it is hard to be definte from a photo, a lot of the photos you show display the normal variation of colour/grain within WRC.

What concerns me a lot more are things you don't seem too concerned about, and that is the black staining of the WRC, caused by using ferrous fixings. In all my years in the surface coating industry I have never seen a manufacturer of WRC joinery use ferrous fixings such as nails, alwayd copper or SS.

In my opinion you have a valid claim against the manufacturer of the windows/doors, they also don't appear to have been treated with water repellant wood preservative. I have been closely involved with Stegbar in the development of this type of treatment and would have thought that after all these years every joinery was doing this. Stegbar routinely DIP all their WRC joinery before it leaves the factory.

If this wasn't done at the factory, it should have been done on-site (not dipping of course) before installation of the joinery.

I have put a link to the Stegbar recommendations here.

Take particular note of their wrnings against using anything ferrous, even steel wool!


Your case could be a messy one, if you purchased the joinery for the builder to install, the terms pillar and post spring to mind

The ferrous staining shown on your pictures is there to stay, it cannot be retrieved IMHO.

[pawnhead]

I have been closely involved with Stegbar in the development of this type of treatment and would have thought that after all these years every joinery was doing this. Stegbar routinely DIP all their WRC joinery before it leaves the factory.

If this wasn't done at the factory, it should have been done on-site (not dipping of course) before installation of the joinery.

Ditto that. A decent joinery shop would do it as a matter of course, and if it wasn't done, then the buck stops with the builder.

Those black stains are the 'major' though. I'd insist they were re-built if he paid 7k for them. They've obviously used 'bright' nails and they don't know how windows are supposed to be built.
You shouldn't have fixing marks in the surface in the first place anyway. I can see that they're integrated with aluminium, but a decent joinery would have any fixings concealed somehow.

[Make it work]

Ray, I have seen your pics and I'm with you. I'D BE SPEWING!!!

If you close one eye, stand on one leg and tilt your head at 45 degrees in the right light it is not so noticable but any other time you know its there and it annoys the crap out of you.

If it was me I would be giving the builder an opportunity to make good but seeking replacement if I was not satisified with their final attempt.