Installing an Outdoor Spa

[Marc]

Yes, surfing high on the emotional wave is the way to work the crowd well done. Also the use of half edited vulgarities is a good way to appeal for consensus.

There are two main group of people in the world.
The one who love to achieve in their own terms and fight for an environment that allows to do so and in the process take responsibility for their actions, and the other group who lobbies to legislate an environment that will then provide what they desire by default.

Obviously the second group implies that unless there is a law for or against XXX nothing will change since change comes from the outside. And the consequence of this form of thinking is the absence of personal responsibility. If a kid drowns it is because the bad politicians have not legislated a proper fence.

I am waiting for legislation that increases "housing affordability " in Vaucluse.

[bricks]

Nic, It would be best to avoid any information on this subject not directly relevant to your location.

It appears that in your area ( Rockingham council?), the regulations are set by the council.

If so read this, it is the coucils rules regarding spa's and pools.
http://www.rockingham.wa.gov.au/pdf/...egulations.pdf

Unfortunately some people on this forum refuse to admit that talking to councils, building inspectors or governing bodies can actually be helpfull. They won't charge you money to talk to them and get advice- that's what your rates are for. It does however appear that you need a building approval for the installation of your spa.

Have fun reading- hope you find the info that you need.

[bricks]

Page 4, 1st paragraph:

It appears- you dont need a fence if you can put the spa edge up high enough.
- You still need building approval, so the council can check that you have done it right.

[thebuildingsurv]

Marc, People like you are the reason there are so many laws today, and i would not be surprised if you live in vacluse, because often wealthy people are more concerned with their possessions and what things look like than the welfare of their families and others. I guess by your photo you are getting on in life and were brought up in the shell be right attitude era. As people evolve and learn new things, they implement them, I guess you would argue against scaffolding on a building site to if it ruined the look of your property (whats a broken leg, back or neck).

There are some laws I dislike, like the fact I cant drink a slab of bourbon and get behind the wheel of my car and do dohnuts down the main street, but I understand that if i do this i can kill myself and maybe others.

Anyways some people never learn untill its to late, no point arguing, life is short, even shorter for a kid that has never had the chance due to a selfish adult.

[Burnsy]

thebuildingsurv is right

Why have Legislation for Private Swimming Pools?
Drowning is the leading cause of injury and death in children aged 0-5 age. Every week one child under five years of age drowns in Australia. For every drowning it is estimated that approximately six children are admitted to hospital as a result of an immersion incident. In Australia this equates to 360 ‘near drowned’ children each year. For children aged 0 - 5, domestic swimming pools are the most common site in which drowning occurs. It is estimated that Australia wide 97% of young children who drowned in a domestic swimming pool were residents or an invited guest, of a relative or friend.

Pools and spas are in the same category, not like toasters - they are appliances

Legislation in Western Australia requires the owner
or occupier of a property with a private swimming or
spa pool to install barriers around the structure for
the protection of young children who may enter that
area with or without the knowledge or consent of
the owner/occupier.

Most if not all coucils require planning approval first because

Legislation in Western Australia
The following documents operate together to
stipulate the requirements for swimming pool and
spa barriers:
• Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions)
Act 1960 (the “Act”)
• Building Regulations 1989 (the “Regulations)
• Australian Standard 1926.1 – 1993; Fencing
for Swimming Pools (the “Standard)

A lid/cover is not a fence

Lockable Pool/Spa covers are not suitable to meet
the requirements of the Legislation.

Fines might not be big but living with the fact that you killed a three year old can't be paid off. My cousin drowned on Christmas day many years ago in old rules fenced pool, she was blue when removed from the water and I can still remember the look on my Aunty's face like it was today. We were extremely lucky that she was able to be revived and has suffered no long term damage, but she spent the rest of the summer in intesive care. Most of these type of stories don't end this well. Do it properly.

To read it all go here http://www.dhw.wa.gov.au/Files/RulesforPools3-11a.pdf

[bricks]

While we are on the subject and there seem to be some Knowledgeable people here, just a question. I always thought a pool fence had to be 'self securing' so that if you walk away from it it becomes safe without you having to do anything?

Can the fence for a pool be installed in panel fashion so that you could remove it and replace it?

Just wondering, freinds of mine have a pool and a fence but due to the location of the pool and house you basically walk out the sliding door on the back of the house and straight into the fence.

It would be nicer during times of use to be able to take that section away as at the moment you have to walk to one end to access the gate.

[Burnsy]

Bricks, short answer is no, kids drown when you run inside to answer the phone and don't replace the panel, I guess that is why the glass fencing is now so popular over here - looks better than having a fence outside your door. Check out the pdf link I posted it has the whole run down, not sure if there are subtle differences where you are. My understanding is that it will be the same as it is an Australian Standard.

[gsouth]

having just been through this entire process in building our pool in NSW, you can use your house doors (sliding etc) as part of the fence, HOWEVER the rules that apply to these doors are the same that apply to the gate - self closing and child proof for opening

There are very few doors that can have mechanisms retro-fitted to self close, and most fail the child proof latch tests. We spent days with the fencers working out how we could use doors and windows that opened into the pool area - in the end it worked out MUCH easier to keep the fence the legal distance off the house. We then used glass panels to reduce the impact of the fence....

[pharmaboy2]

So every time you leave the spa even to answer the phone or have a (assuming you dont in the spa) you put the lid on? You have a party every time someone leaves the spa do u put it on then ? Many kids have drowned at someone elses house when adults are drinking so while your kid might not be able to open it others mayand they might get in there and not get out.

I used to think the pool fencing laws were a crock too, but if you talk to parents who have had kids that have drowned and the sadness in their eyes im sure you'll change ur attitude. Whats worse a dead kid (think of it if it was your six year old) or a so called ugly fence.

LOL! I have 2 yr old, of course I freakin put the lid on it when i leave it, and you take a before you get in a spa! First of all, i dont regail against fencing pool laws, apart from the odd stupid law that applies to fish ponds no matter how inaccessible they are.

Further it doesnt follow in the slightest, that the more draconian the legislation the safer you'll somehow make it. the obvious case in point, is how people start to depend on safety fences and think therefore the child is safe, and thus dont supervise, there have been umpteen cases of 3 yr olds scaling pool fences by standing on their tricycle or whatever. the world isnt safe, never was, never will be, and legislation wont make it so.

bet you pounbds to peanuts that more children were killed by 4wd's last year, than children that successfully got in a spa witha cover on! OMG Ban 4wds! As to getting approvals frm council - how many people get applications done for an aircon install when within 2m of the boundary - 1 in 50, 1 in a 100? what about pulling out a 3.5m tall camelia, actually what about just pruning it - come to council and get an approval with fee of course. Getting an approval for trimming my hedge - nah we'er not overgoverened are we......

[Marc]

Marc, People like you are the reason there are so many laws today, and i would not be surprised if you live in vacluse, because often wealthy people are more concerned with their possessions and what things look like than the welfare of their families and others.

Priceless I love it...remember always, "rich is bad poor is good"

I guess by your photo you are getting on in life and were brought up in the shell be right attitude era. As people evolve and learn new things, they implement them, I guess you would argue against scaffolding on a building site to if it ruined the look of your property (whats a broken leg, back or neck).

Correct, I run several building sites with illegal immigrants from china, all in the poor suburbs of course.

There are some laws I dislike, like the fact I cant drink a slab of bourbon and get behind the wheel of my car and do dohnuts down the main street, but I understand that if i do this i can kill myself and maybe others.

For some reason I am not surprised that you don't like the laws against
drink driving, but hei, I can not make supposition on your character since I don't know you and don't have the benefit of your photo to make assumptions either.

Anyways some people never learn untill its to late, no point arguing, life is short, even shorter for a kid that has never had the chance due to a selfish adult.

Now here is a paragraph I totaly agree with. Most people never learn that the answer to human shortcomings is not legislation. That it is the change from whithin that matters and not the one from outside. That children are the rsponsibility of their parents and not the parliament or the council or the 4WD manufacturers or Colt or Winchester.

[thebuildingsurv]

Stats show drowings have significantly reduced since pool fencing laws were introduced, in fact i dont beleive there has been any drownings with a fully compliant barrier.

Anyway I am not a pool fencing campaigner, just being captain obvious, and yes many kids do get hit in driveways by 4wd and other cars, in fact i know a bloke that killed his brother in laws kid, but there is no simple way to resolve this like there is with a pool fence. I dont beleive more kids are killed this way though ( i could be wrong)

I agree there is far to much red tape these days. In relation to the guns, before you had to lock them up my dad used to keep his large collection of rifles , shotguns and ammo within reach of us kids and we played with them when he went out. My grandfather always used to keep a loaded shotgun for protection in his car when he worked at the footscray fruit and vegge market, I used to play with it. I am glad you now have to lock em up and keep ammo and the guns seperate.

Often its not untill a law is introduced that people become aware a danger exists.

Pharmboy I would be interested if you could provide details of the upteen cases of kids scaling pool fences and then drowing (or even one for that matter) I am sure there would not be many.

Anyway I hope either of you are never Involved in any accident with some kid drowning etc, because unlike a disease this is a preventable death. Ultimately you will do what you want anyway.

[pharmaboy2]

Stats show drowings have
Pharmboy I would be interested if you could provide details of the upteen cases of kids scaling pool fences and then drowing (or even one for that matter) I am sure there would not be many.

3 minutes on google returned 2006 report into child deaths in qld - for 1-4 yr olds, "one child stood on chair to open the gate" 8 drownings were in pools, 4 in bathtubs, 4 were gates left open, 4 were no failure in fencing. no deaths in spas.....

So the return question of course would be, how many toddlers have drowned in a spa with a lid as the barrier? this is the crux of the issue - we got the regs on pool fencing when it was demonstrated that pool drownings were a growing problem, and that pool fencing with gates actually very significantly reduced the drowning rates amongst toddlers (note - "toddlers'). Has anyone provided any data to show that spas with covers are a significant risk as compared to fenced off spas (ie NSW versus vict for instance) in order to change the legislation, or do they just change the definition because it seems logical and they can?

The reason i know, is that my son at 5 scaled a pool fence with ease in about 10 seconds to get a ball - I'm quite sure he's not the worlds best climber.

so in the above 8 cases, its fair to say fencing for the pools created 3 deaths, and 5 to do with incompetent supervision - also high risk of been known to docs and lower socioeconomic background - just thought I'd add that one given how Vaucluse people are bad.....

[thebuildingsurv]

That extract I provided was from a spa with a cover, obviously not on at the time the kid drowned, the regs are to protect kids under 5 not over 5. People from lower socio economic backrounds are always higher when it comes to problems with kids, probably cause they have have more of them and cant care from themselves other than their kids.

I think you have missed the whole point about about safety barriers not having to rely on human interaction.

In regards to standing on a chair, yes this is possible, but that is why the gate swings outwards. It isnt easy for a kid to reach up open the latch the get off the chair, whilst keeping the gate open, but yes its possible though, and why would you leave your kid unsupervised anyway.

1 case where a kid has drowned with a complying pool fence, i can not see how the pool fence has caused the the other deaths. I think you have muddled the stats, feel free to post the links i would be intersted.

I have personally had to provide reports to the coroner (twice). Its is not a nice task, and also provided comments to the AS committee about the new AS 1926 that has been produced, the comments I made were to relax some of the requirements in regards to boundary fencing requirements which i beleive were adopted. I am not all about over regulation, just regulation thats warranted.

What I was saying about many (not all) "showy" wealthy people is that the look of thier backyard is more important than safety. Anyway we can agree to disagree and crap on for hours about who is right and who is wrong, but i think that the overwhelming majority would agree with me on this one. And i think it should be left at that.

[pharmaboy2]

okeydokey - withour arguing OK

nah, I know exactly what the auto closing gates are about, and that a spa lid doesnt fulfill that requirement (there's one for the inventors out there). And as a real world person I'm dead sure you are acutely aware of what a large % of pools out there having self closing and latching gates that once did, and now dont - I wouldnt be surprised if its a 1/3 to a 1/2 of all fences dont comply in one way or another - although they probably did at one stage.

I'm not saying that a pool fence caused any deaths at all, for the report that I was reading - it links from here,

http://www.ccypcg.qld.gov.au/about/p...ns/dcyp06.html

BTW, my local govt area was one of the first to put togther proper new pool fence laws in and retrospective ones. The main reg that I think is stupid if its still there, is that you cant have your BBQ inside the pool fence (NSW govt)- sort of defeats the purpose for a lot of people i would think. Sometimes people write legislation with the aim of a perfect world rather than simply accepting its a risky place to be. I am glad I dont have to fence my spa off, as is teh company that sold it to me, because for certain i wouldnt have bought it if I had to erect 18m of fencing and a self latching gate - I especially feel for the childless couples who have a secure backyard no kids, no kids to come and visit, yet have to build a great big fence for a risk that is essentially non existant for them

[bricks]

We have bought a spa from an auction. What is the process to be followed when installing an outdoor spa or the best way to go about it
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