Today school system

[Big Shed]

So BT, to take your argument to its' logical conclusion, if you are saying that governments, either state or federal, should not be funding private education?

Then if people chose to have private health insrance, they should not be entitled to a Medicare refund?


At the end of the day, all these kids need to be educated, if there were no private schools, they would all go to a publicschool. Who would pay for that, the taxpayer, ergo governments.

I think you should look at how much it costs per year educate a kid in public school, and how much the governments spend on each kid per year in private schools. From memory it is about 2:1, ie it costs the governments twice as much to educate a public school student as it does a private school student.

The difference is made up by parents, the same parents that also pay their taxes to spend double on educating the neighbours kids in a public school.

From memory there was a chap called Latham that was going to stop funding private schools on his hit list, look what happened to him.

I am not biased either way, all three of my kids went to public schools, so I don't have an axe to grind, but I think ideology should be left out of the education funding debate.

[Burnsy]

Another thing to add to the mix is the support shown by P&C etc, not just the extra funds, but the sense of pride in the school filters down to the students. No active parent participation=we don't care about the students.
I'm sure the socio-economic area of the school has some influence on the culture too: a majority of students with low self-esteem or sense of opportunities for the future would be a real disaster.

Pretty much on the dot there. There are two effects of socio economic situation, one is money and the other is the child’s environment. As Bleedin Thumb said, money does not necessarily make students and teachers smile. We recently had a Principal change and the smiles appeared within the first two hours at school and have stayed. Schools are no different to any other organisation, poor management smashes moral. We don’t have the money of private schools but there is still plenty to do that does not cost heaps of money.

What money state schools do get is poorly used due to a bureaucratic debacle of a tendering and pre-registration system that is in place. All major works are undertaken by a hand full of contractors who are pre-registered and all flat out. Therefore you get nothing for your money. We recently spent $90k on refurbishing an undercover area and if you saw it you would ask what we had done. Concreting that is not level, water pools in the middle, low MPA that dusted and required sealing with a concrete paint afterwards. I had words with the department supervisor and said that I wanted to see the specifications as there was no way these clowns should be paid and the whole lot should be ripped up at their cost – nothing was done. We are currently having shade shelters erected – two 6x3 gabled patios side by side. They have been working on them for five weeks now – I kid you not! These should have gone up in three days. What they have put up is all on the and nowhere near level.

Private schools employ maintenance supervisors and get a lot more for their money as each job is managed.
The other side of the socio economic coin is the environment. When students are told that they are worthless little c###s at home by no hoper parents it is no wonder they come to school with a bad attitude and swear at the teachers – it is all that they know. This is very apparent after holidays when you notice the difference that spending seven days a week with mum or dad makes to a child, all the good work the teacher did in the previous term is straight out the window. For example I have a 10 year old in my class who can not read or write – even his own name will be spelt wrong 4 out of 5 times. His mum tells me she does not care if he can’t read or write. Get real, there are no jobs anywhere anymore for illiterate people, you can’t even dig holes without being able to read a safety manual and pass a blue card test.
I have six so called pointy end kids in my class so realistically what can I do to help this kid if his mum won’t support me? You can’t give kids one on one time because as soon as you do three others start playing up and realistically there are no consequences. The don’t care attitude of these kids is deeply engrained and in the most part is not just a front. They truly do not care if they miss out on a reward and believe that they should be given everything, it is their right. Who is to blame – the PARENTS!

The other end of the scale is not much better. I have a friend who teaches at one of the top private girl’s schools. The “I don’t have to do that” attitude of these kids is just as bad. Many have never had to do a thing for themselves and expect the same at school. These kids grow up knowing that no matter what they do mummy or daddy will fix it for them and they are never wrong, they are mummies little angels.

There is a middle ground and the kids in those schools are generally all pretty level headed and respectful. 70% of the kids in my school fit in there and I will give those kids everything. What they put up with on a daily basis from the other 30% is disgusting to say the least, but the governments stance on inclusive schooling and the lack of real consequences means that as a teacher all you can do is minimize the impact the 30% have on the rest of the students – grin and bare it!
Rant finished.

[wheelinround]

[quote=Burnsy;566096]PAs Bleedin Thumb said, money does not necessarily make students and teachers smile. We recently had a Principal change and the smiles appeared within the first two hours at school and have stayed. Schools are no different to any other organisation, poor management smashes moral. We don’t have the money of private schools but there is still plenty to do that does not cost heaps of money.

Your right any new staff member can ruine the enviroment of others school or work.
Having worked in a number of industries a one persons good boss is anothers satanic hell. This brings it to personality traits same at schools.

What money state schools do get is poorly used due to a bureaucratic debacle of a tendering and pre-registration system that is in place. All major works are undertaken by a hand full of contractors who are pre-registered and all flat out.

Yep just look at NSW recent tenders for fencing and fitting of A/C's systems a small handfull to do the whole states schools (ok Sydney's anyway).

Therefore you get nothing for your money. We recently spent $90k on refurbishing an undercover area and if you saw it you would ask what we had done. Concreting that is not level, water pools in the middle, low MPA that dusted and required sealing with a concrete paint afterwards. I had words with the department supervisor and said that I wanted to see the specifications as there was no way these clowns should be paid and the whole lot should be ripped up at their cost – nothing was done.

Wonder who's in who's pocket there.

We are currently having shade shelters erected – two 6x3 gabled patios side by side. They have been working on them for five weeks now – I kid you not! These should have gone up in three days. What they have put up is all on the and nowhere near level.

Attitude is "Hey its a gov contract we can make $$$ for doing little and take as long as we like, recently a LCC put in doz new trees around a park play area across the road, All the equip they needed trees quite mature, a doz workers and 3 weekends.

The other side of the socio economic coin is the environment. When students are told that they are worthless little c###s at home by no hoper parents it is no wonder they come to school with a bad attitude and swear at the teachers – it is all that they know.

This comes from even North Shore as well parents and teachers, by parents but maybe not in words. Many get more love from nannies, or are shoved off to boarding schools out of parents way so the parents can get on with their lives as they want. The highest paid child minding service for high flying execs politicians gov officials. I have met kids that only used to see parents for an hour when they flew into Syd airport or back out nanny used to take them or find their own way there. One girls private school there were more girls dropped off by nannies than parents, it was amazing to see the girls who were brought by parents hug them quick and dump n run, while those with nannies didn't want to leave them the nannies stayed till I drove away.

This is very apparent after holidays when you notice the difference that spending seven days a week with mum or dad makes to a child, all the good work the teacher did in the previous term is straight out the window.

Are these kids spending that time with mum & dad??? Socio dictates they must work heaven help us if business had that many staff off during these times. They only get 4 weeks holiday a year to devide up to 3 months their kids get off. This means that kids are looking after themselves, parenst have to trust their kids during this time educate them for every possibility and allow them to grow and learn.

For example I have a 10 year old in my class who can not read or write – even his own name will be spelt wrong 4 out of 5 times. His mum tells me she does not care if he can’t read or write. Get real, there are no jobs anywhere anymore for illiterate people, you can’t even dig holes without being able to read a safety manual and pass a blue card test.

Years ago (late 60's early 70's) teachers were dragged from all walks of life put through a rush course and stood in front of school kids a teacher shortage. Trades grab for apprentices due to low costs they demand these kids "know it all" .After all they have spent years sitting around doing nothing, being taught everything, government funding has been handed, out teachers pay packets have been increased, they are being kept up to date with modern technology.
This mum may have a life that has been worthless, itmay have been instilled in her from an early age or she mayhave come fromthe best of families and knows that education didn't do anything for her that family ties can do much better.

I have six so called pointy end kids in my class so realistically what can I do to help this kid if his mum won’t support me? Show the kid you care like you are doing with the project it will hit home he is the one who might want to change his destiny. One small step!!! But huge in my eyes. LOML did a TAFE course many moons ago for Adult Litracy to teach adults many her won age (30's) at the time and just as many older, she gave it up as a joke when a number of her students were cab drivers, and had been for years, no wonder they couldn't use a street directory.

About the same time I was spraying a Mini for a parent of a local well off business family who's son was in Duntroon the restration was a gift for passing all his exams and becoming an Officer and Engineer. Sadly he was involved in an investigation that rocked his parents world. He had some how gone through his whole school years passing exams, passed entrance exams to Duntroon and passed all exams there until out on manouvers. He was handed a sealed envelope with FYEO security and ripped it open and handed it to a subordinate and asked him to read it so he could check the maps cordinates. An observing oficer stopped this and handed it back to him and said you must do this yourself to which they found he couldn't read he was dyslexic. He had devised all his school years how to learn by rote having other class mates read to him, goodness knows how he got through exam papers.

ADFA had to discharge him sat him through test after test which he passed thinking he had cheated he had stored it all in memory. I believe they helped him and continued his employment in their engineering side.

You can’t give kids one on one time because as soon as you do three others start playing up and realistically there are no consequences. Yep and its usually the teaher shwo give their time most to pointy heads that the other kids see as favouritism so they then begin to play up.
The don’t care attitude of these kids is deeply engrained and in the most part is not just a front. They truly do not care if they miss out on a reward and believe that they should be given everything, it is their right. Who is to blame – the PARENTS!
>>
The other end of the scale is not much better. I have a friend who teaches at one of the top private girl’s schools. The “I don’t have to do that” attitude of these kids is just as bad. Many have never had to do a thing for themselves and expect the same at school. These kids grow up knowing that no matter what they do mummy or daddy will fix it for them and they are never wrong, they are mummies little angels.
>>

There is a middle ground and the kids in those schools are generally all pretty level headed and respectful. 70% of the kids in my school fit in there and I will give those kids everything. What they put up with on a daily basis from the other 30% is disgusting to say the least, but the governments stance on inclusive schooling and the lack of real consequences means that as a teacher all you can do is minimize the impact the 30% have on the rest of the students – grin and bare it!
Rant finished.>

What ever happened to the visions I was shown of Aussie kids sitting learning under a tree prior coming to Australia??
We see this in countries of 3rd world standard or even Australia's own outback schools.
If electrical equipment all died tomorrow could kids not be taught, look at the Tsunami effected kids some teachers got them into groups and taught them. Aussie Dr's went OS to aid, no fantastic inventions just pure intelegence and willing to learn you can save a life with less.

sorry I am so pasionate about money and what it will and wont do.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Then if people chose to have private health insrance, they should not be entitled to a Medicare refund?

.

No, everyones entitled to the medicare rebate, sorry I don't see the connection with the education debate.

As far as keeping ideology out of the debate... IMHO this is purely an ideological issue.

Free quality education to all not just those that can afford it.

What was the last budget surplus over a Billion dollars from memory but there are kids freezing in leaky demountable buildings, there are no more teachers aids, and not enough resources to provide adequate remedial math and literacy programs.

Too right its a ideologic debate..

[Big Shed]

No, everyones entitled to the medicare rebate, sorry I don't see the connection with the education debate.

Quite simple really, we all pay tax, well most of us, and therefore we are entitled to "free" health care, we should also be entitled to "free" education. What you are saying is that you should only get government subsidised education in government schools. Why?

As far as keeping ideology out of the debate... IMHO this is purely an ideological issue.

Free quality education to all not just those that can afford it.

Exactly to ALL!

What was the last budget surplus over a Billion dollars from memory but there are kids freezing in leaky demountable buildings, there are no more teachers aids, and not enough resources to provide adequate remedial math and literacy programs.

And this despite the government paying roughly twice as much to educate a child in the government "system"! From what I can see and have experienced, the education system is in the state it is in not because of lack of funding but because of top heavy bureaucracy and ideology driven "outcomes based" clap-trap.

That is why parents are voting with their feet and paying extra, and getting less subsidy from the government, to give their children an education.

You would prefer to deny them even that reduced subsidy

Too right its a ideologic debate..

So let's keep the ideology out of education and teach our children properly, if they can do it in private schools, why can't they in public schools?

[Burnsy]

Are these kids spending that time with mum & dad??? Socio dictates they must work heaven help us if business had that many staff off during these times. They only get 4 weeks holiday a year to devide up to 3 months their kids get off. This means that kids are looking after themselves, parenst have to trust their kids during this time educate them for every possibility and allow them to grow and learn.

Suprisingly yes, despite the amount of employment available in WA at the moment, we have a disproportionate amount of non-workers in our school community. Many single parents who feel they don't have any other option but to stay home due to the cost of after school care and many others with the why should I work attitude.

[wheelinround]

Suprisingly yes, despite the amount of employment available in WA at the moment, we have a disproportionate amount of non-workers in our school community. Many single parents who feel they don't have any other option but to stay home due to the cost of after school care and many others with the why should I work attitude.

So why is after school care costing so much they are after all not teachers just baby sitting.
Then again employers would be vexed by a mass walk out at end of school so parents can go home and look after their kids.

I hate being home have been for about 10 yrs but I try keep myself busy one reason for joining this forum and getting into woodwork.
The other is so I don't waste away physically and mentally.

Shame some of these single parents couldn't coem help you in the project Burnsy. I'd even get into it over here but regulations, access, etc mind you it might show kids that even a person with a disability can still learn, earn and produce..

[Bleedin Thumb]

You would prefer to deny them even that reduced subsidy



So let's keep the ideology out of education and teach our children properly, if they can do it in private schools, why can't they in public schools?

Firstly some of the private schools don't need public funding and to receive it is misappropiation of public funds.

Secondly if the Government fixed the public system by cutting the beuracratic waste and allocating the proper resources people wouldn't have to vote with their feet it would be purely the parents choice to send their kids to a private school so they shouldn't expect the rest of society to pay for their choice.

Thirdly it is an ideological argument..Privatisation of the education system.

What we have now is demolition of the public system by neglect, forcing people to take up private education.

Mmmmm haven't we seen that somewhere before? I'm afraid it is ideology that is causing the problem in the first place. The education system has been infected by the capitalist bug.

[Big Shed]

BT, you are espousing class envy ala Latham. Even Rudd has moved on from that.

[Bleedin Thumb]

You may call it class envy.. I call it social justice ...and I don't really care about what some Labour politician thinks. I gave up on the labour party years ago.

Anyway BS we aren't going to agree on this one so all the best .

[sawdustmike]

Well said everyone! As I said before, and before, the state system has enough money, it is how they use it. Just take a walk into silver city (ed dept headquarters in perth) and you will see what I mean. Once you get a job in there, you get a temp in to do your job so you can spend time improving your resume so that you can climb the ladder - serious, this is what goes on. When I started at my last school there was one HM and two deputies. HM retired and replaced by new wave numbers imbecile. When I left (resigned) the school had one HM, three deputies, timetable co-ordinator, MSB co-ordinator and a permenent relief teacher to organise relief teachers! By the way, school numbers had dropped from 800 to less than 600. Staff turnover went from virtually nil to about 30%.

Some PS promote a snotty attitude, which is a reflection of the parents that send their kids there. This is why we shopped around. Not all top tier PS are like that. Heck even the state schools have their elitist attitudes - Churchlands and Rossmoyne for example.

Sorry BT, this is not really an idealogy thing. The bottom end get shafted by everybody, left, right, banks etc. Education is a responsibility of the states, and the feds give about 40% of the funding so I think they deserve some input to the process. Don't forget, all the states are gov by labour so if you think it will improve federally under Rudd dream on.

[SPIRIT]

wow this theard is still kicking ,when l started it l had one of them crapy days 2 kid suspended (not from me) dealing with the admin of the school was a nightmare

what l think they need more in our schools is plain old life skill teaching (well thats my job ) one of the hardest thing at the moment is teaching them how to talk without useing F#$@ this F!@# that in it.

We try to fit in some woodwork and art as well

Had a lot better day today did some good work reprograming them a little, it makes it feel better when there is some improvement

Teenager's brain is a stange thing

keeping them off the streets is the main game l seem to be playing

still think the school system needs to rethink how they deal with the lower 30%,disaplin dosn't work all the time