Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

[boban]

If you've got something to say, don't hold back. I promise I wont cry.

I forgot to add the after that. In any event I had nothing of merit to add to those threads.

[silentC]

OK, I can break this debate down into two fundamental points of view which I hold:

1. Doing your own wiring is illegal in this country for better or for worse. I believe that the lines I quoted above are intended to make the reader think that it's OK to do it anyway. From a responsible point of view, I think it is wrong, given the fact that this is a public forum, not a chat around the table at the local pub between mates.

2. I think there are people who definitely should not attempt it anyway, even if it wasn't. For two reasons: a) some people just don't have the intuitive understanding required. Not every sparky gets through his apprenticeship. Some people just don't get it. It's not a question of intelligence, but some people's brains are wired differently. b) a lot of people are very slapdash about adhering to standards - sloppy workmanship - she'll be right mate. Yes there are trades like that, but at least their work has to be inspected.

I know a bloke who is no doubt in the genius end of the scale in IQ. He is a very intelligent chap. But there are some things that are totally logical to me that he just does not get. I would be very afraid of getting him to wire up a point, let alone an entire house.

I understand the desire to discuss these things. I think it's a bit hypocritical to accept on the one hand that it's illegal but to help people out anyway, but life is full of contradictions. I'm presenting a strictly above board approach, I know that. It's pedantic, I can't help it, that's the way I'm wired. I'm also an argumentative SOB. Sometimes I take the opposing view to see where it goes.

We're never going to agree, so I'll just go on saying "get a sparky" and you guys keep doing what you're doing. If the reader (who could be anyone of a million people out there) makes a decision based on the information presented, then we can ask no more or no less.

Thank you, and good night!

[DavidG]

See

[silentC]

That guy is an optimist!

As far as the liability issue goes, I always attach legally drafted disclaimer statements and God willing, I hope to avoid any litigation over well-intended guidance. There are pages on the Internet that will describe in detail how to make bombs and weapons of mass destruction. I would hope that they would be targeted by litigation before myself, or any of my many other colleagues on the net who provide helpful advice on any subject that they feel qualified to assist with.

And he's a Canadian!

[wonderplumb]

(long low whistle)...................
what topic are we on again??????????

[DavidG]

Shall I pop out for some more pizza?

[Yonnee]

Yonnee
That would mean that you could do all your own house wiring if the supply came from your own generator and the lead was plugged in.

COOL!!!

Sorry but they caught up with that one in the latest batch of changes. The answer is Nope......

Oh well... It's been a few years since I did that course.

Yep, that's encouraging someone to break the law as is telling them to do the grunt work by running wires etc

Huh!!

Why would it be illegal to feed a piece of plastic coated copper through a length a plastic pipe, and attaching it to the frame work of a shed or house every few hundred mm?

[boban]

OK, I can break this debate down into two fundamental points of view which I hold:

1. Doing your own wiring is illegal in this country for better or for worse. I believe that the lines I quoted above are intended to make the reader think that it's OK to do it anyway. From a responsible point of view, I think it is wrong, given the fact that this is a public forum, not a chat around the table at the local pub between mates.

No issue with the first part. I think the public nature of the forum is more likely to result in any incorrect information being highlighted at an early stage. People are queuing up to jump on any misinformation posted on the forum. I would be more concerned with the pub conversation. If one mate gets it wrong and the others follow the advice.....you be the judge as to what's more likely to result in a tragedy.

2. I think there are people who definitely should not attempt it anyway, even if it wasn't. For two reasons: a) some people just don't have the intuitive understanding required. Not every sparky gets through his apprenticeship. Some people just don't get it. It's not a question of intelligence, but some people's brains are wired differently. b) a lot of people are very slapdash about adhering to standards - sloppy workmanship - she'll be right mate. Yes there are trades like that, but at least their work has to be inspected.

I know a bloke who is no doubt in the genius end of the scale in IQ. He is a very intelligent chap. But there are some things that are totally logical to me that he just does not get. I would be very afraid of getting him to wire up a point, let alone an entire house.

I understand the desire to discuss these things. I think it's a bit hypocritical to accept on the one hand that it's illegal but to help people out anyway, but life is full of contradictions. I'm presenting a strictly above board approach, I know that. It's pedantic, I can't help it, that's the way I'm wired. I'm also an argumentative SOB. Sometimes I take the opposing view to see where it goes.

We're never going to agree, so I'll just go on saying "get a sparky" and you guys keep doing what you're doing. If the reader (who could be anyone of a million people out there) makes a decision based on the information presented, then we can ask no more or no less.

Thank you, and good night!

Silent that first submission is hardly up to your usual standards. It could equally apply to tablesaws and some people.

As to hypocrisy, (and this is not a personal attack on you mate), couldn't the same be said of the stance that some laws must be observed, and others not observed, based on your subjective opinion of their benefit or value.

It's probably common ground that most on this forum support the running of wires etc and having the sparky finish off (illegal as it may be) but for heaven's sake don't use your pliers and screwdriver to connect a powerpoint. That, in my submission, is based on the subjective view held by the "call a sparky group" (for want of a better description) that one is dangerous and the other is not. Both are illegal. To agree with one and not the other is hypocrisy if you base your opinion on the legislation.

Now what's for dinner? Any pizza left?

[spartan]

I love these threads....as an electrician who works for a major electrical company and does some work on the weekends to help keep my license paid for....I have also worked in the office of electrical safety.

I think this is all about protect the pay packet of the license holder....I think from memory (perhaps and urban myth) it dates back to when Australia was receiving numerous workers from overseas...Especially those poms....The ETU push this far more than any safety body.....

Anyway, I've seen plenty of dodgy work done by qualifed guys who should know better....I can typically spot a lot of DIY work...why because its almost too good in many instances...right down to the correct colour of tape....

As for the insurance issue...this is p^&* funny - Insurance companies pay when you get drunk and knock over your 20 year old frayed corded heater every day.....

And FFS, we can't solve as many murders in all of Australia as they do on CSI on Sunday night yet we expect the fire department and insurance assessor and Office of Electrical Safety to repel in by helicopter to the site of every electrical incident ready to lift finger prints and serial numbers off arlec cable purchased at bunnies....sorry it just doesn't happen....

Someone dobs you in.....You might get a knock on the door...to which you say "No sir, not me sir...."

To finish my contribution, educate not legislate...that's what the kiwis do....same electrical standards as us....

[boban]

Huh!!

Why would it be illegal to feed a piece of plastic coated copper through a length a plastic pipe, and attaching it to the frame work of a shed or house every few hundred mm?

Stuffed if I know why, it just is. Spartan has a reasonable theory on the subject though.

[Learner]

FROM SILICON CHIP MAGAZINE

You may be able to do your own wiring in New Zealand.

I suppose this fits in with the general picture of Australians being apathetic but this is an issue which affects us all – all people who want to be able to work on electrical equipment. The campaign is really two-pronged. We’re not just campaigning that people should be allowed to do their own home-wiring. There also should be no restrictions on people working on mains-powered equipment.

In countries where it is legal for home-owners to do their own wiring, information on how to do it is freely available. For instance, the New Zealand government sells "code of practice" booklets to home-owners there (NZ$5 each), to provide guidance on various aspects of electrical wiring and appliance repairs. So while ever it is illegal in Australia for home-owners to do their own domestic wiring, the information on how to do it is likely to be unavailable.

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101731/article.html

To summarise the campaign, we are appealing to the parliamentarians in each state to direct their electrical licensing authority to:
<dir>(a) remove any restrictions which may prevent people from working on mains-powered equipment, whether it is for the purpose of service and repair, restoration or assembly;
(b) produce legislation which is based on the New Zealand Electricity Act and Regulations, which allows householders to do their own "electrical work", including appliance repairs and the installation of fixed wiring.

Letter from Silicon chip magazine
</dir>More on New Zealand’s electrical regulations

Further to my previous letters, I spent almost the whole of March in New Zealand and I had a very informative and productive meeting with a senior official of the Energy Safety Service within the Ministry of Economic Development. Here is a brief summary of some of the things I discovered.
(1). In a comparative study of international annual electrical fatality statistics done by the New Zealand Energy Safety Serv&#173;ice, Queensland consistently had the highest levels of electrical fatalities in Australia. Much more interestingly, Australia had higher levels of electrical fatalities than any other country studied, with the exception of Northern Ireland.
This New Zealand study confirmed the results of a similar study done by the German government, so the results are corrobo&#173;rated. The country with the lowest electrical fatalities (by a huge margin, varying from year to year between 0.5 and less than 0.1 deaths per million of population), is The Netherlands, and this is one of the many countries that allow householder DIY wiring). Australia has the second highest levels of annual elec&#173;trical fatalities (varying between 2.5 and 4 deaths per million of population).
Now Northern Ireland is an extremely turbulent society. Yet by the German and New Zealand comparative studies, Northern Ireland is the only country with higher levels of electrical fatalities than Australia! The Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate" themselves.
(2). Prior to 1992, it was illegal for any electrician in New Zealand to explain any technical aspect of electrical wiring to anyone who was not a trainee electrician, or not otherwise li&#173;censed to do "electrical work". This prohibition was seen as a serious impediment to the new electrical safety regime and was eliminated in the 1992 changes to the NZ electrical safety re&#173;gime. (It appears there is no similar prohibition in the current Queensland legislation).
(3). Anyone can assist an electrician to do electrical work in New Zealand, without the electrician having to look over that person’s shoulder. So for instance, after an electrician has agreed to supervise your work, you could bolt up the control panel and connect the house cables to it on your own and the electrician would just do a quick check on your work when it is finished.
(4). Only completely new work and extensions, etc, are required to be inspected in New Zealand. You can replace and relocate wiring, power points, switches, etc, without notifying the au&#173;thorities as long as cable lengths are not altered. The exception is wiring in metal conduit. New Zealanders are not allowed to work on systems run through the old metal conduit systems. Howev&#173;er, they can remove all the metal conduit and then rewire the house with modern cable and components.
(5). Interestingly, the overwhelming majority of additions to houses in New Zealand are done on an owner-builder basis, there&#173;fore much of New Zealand DIY electrical work is the wiring asso&#173;ciated with such additions. Of course, entire houses are built by owner-builders in New Zealand and in these cases almost all the wiring is done by the owner.
(6). Specially certified "inspectors" do all required inspec&#173;tions, not ordinary electricians. The "inspectors" are liable for the quality of the inspection but not for the quality of the work. If and when the work appears to be particularly shoddy or unsafe the inspector can refuse to do the inspection.
New Zealanders are advised by their Energy Safety Service to secure the services of an "inspector" before they begin their DIY electrical installation work. These "inspectors" are private operators, not government employees, and of course, the homeowner has to pay for the inspection service. These inspectors advise the homeowner on the technical aspects of the installation if they feel such advice is needed.
(7). The senior NZ Energy Safety Service official I spoke to made it clear to me that homeowner DIY wiring will not change in New Zealand as a result of all the ongoing reviews, which are now largely concerned with the health and safety of electrical work&#173;ers in industry. The attitude of the New Zealand authorities is that there is no danger whatsoever when DIY electrical work is done according to law.
(8). The New Zealand Energy Safety Service has the attitude that old cables, switches, power points and other fittings need to be able to be replaced at low cost. They believe the sorts of dan&#173;gerous situations where people continue to use cable and fittings of questionable serviceability are dramatically reduced by allow&#173;ing householders to replace these items themselves.
(9). Before 1992, electrical engineers and associate engineers in NZ were authorized to do all "electrical work". This has now changed for new graduates though all licenses current in 1992 continue. Recently graduated engineers and associate engineers can apply for electrical contractor licenses after fulfilling appropriate (minimal) training.
In Australia, there is no way to avoid the four-year ap&#173;prenticeship. Let’s face it, which electrical contracting busi&#173;ness would take on an adult trainee on adult wages when they can get a teenage apprentice at slave labour rates?
So effectively, there is no practical path to an electrical contractor’s license for engineers and associate engineers in Australia.
(10). When New Zealand decided to reassess its electrical safety regime they sent an official overseas to study the electrical safety regimes in other countries, including the United Kingdom and USA systems. In the National Competition Policy review of electrical safety in Australia, there is no requirement whatsoev&#173;er to even look at "world’s best practice".
(11). In the United Kingdom, electrical licensing is relatively weak and electrical standards compliance is primarily enforced through insurance. The UK, which has long had householder DIY wiring, has annual electrical fatality levels below 1.0 per million of population. Compare that to the Australian figures!
My extensive interactions with New Zealanders were such that I can wholeheartedly confirm the comments of I. Morrison in the January 2001 Mailbag. New Zealand really is a much kinder, fairer society that is much more protective of civil liberties than we are in Australia. So please, wake up Australia!
Otto S. Hoolhorst,
Brisbane, Queensland

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html
<dir>
</dir>

[Border boy]

Having only recently recovered from the shock of receiving a couple of bills from sparkies, I can totally understand why they would wish to "protect" their exclusive & highly protected industry. Normal residential work charged at $65 bucks an hour - done by an apprentice???? Special work dealing with upgrading household supply ie, giving work done by my sparkie the once over (Had a bit of a chat about the footy etc, didn't set foot outside a 2 metre radius of his work van & deemed that a 2" piece of conduit was needed to protect the earth wire to the freshly installed earth stake was required, installed a new digital meter, 2 metres from his work van and signed off to the local supply company - 2 hours max - labour charge $330.
I wish I was a sparky!!

[silentC]

It's probably common ground that most on this forum support the running of wires etc and having the sparky finish off (illegal as it may be)

As far as I know, you can do it, you can probably wire up power points too if you want - but it has to be done under the direct supervision of a sparky with his supervisor ticket. I can't find anything in the legislation that says the person physically doing the work must be qualified unless a) they are doing it commercially or b) they are not under direct supervision.

I suppose 'direct supervision' is open to interpretation - but I don't think there is anything wrong with you pulling wires for the sparky, as long as he has told you what to do and he inspects the work. So as far as I can tell, there is an opportunity there if you can find a cooperative sparky.

It could equally apply to tablesaws and some people.

You're absolutely right, it does. I hold would grave fears if certain people I know ever announced they were going to buy a tablesaw. I usually try to steer clear of that line of argument. I only brought it up because it is the underlying reason why I think a bit of control over what people do with electricity is a good thing. Lowest common denominator protectionism I know. That's why I don't get into it, because it leads to the logical conclusion of preventing everybody from doing anything that might be unsafe.

With regard to wiring, I'm more concerned about the person who buys the house from the DIY sparky than I am about the DIY sparky himself.

[mick101]

As already posted...how does the 'do-it-yourselfer' know that things were correct in the first place....ive seen houses with reverse polarity. When i do elect work on someones house i check a lot of small things that keep people alive, earth resistance/neutrals etc etc. That is what the lic is about.

Industry protection ? Not likely from my point of view...i could go to 20 places tomorrow & get an immediate start on stuff that has nothing to do with power points & lights. Sparks are thin on the ground.

[Amb]

had the plumber around yesterday to fit a new pressure release valve.... it's dripping where he connected it to the tank..............So I pay $200 for the professional....and he can't even get that right. And soon I'll have to open my house up to other professionals, I just can't wait.

I go along with you. In my experience, more often than not, the tradesman does a less than satsfactory job, so I always check to see he's done a good job. I trust my own work before someone else's.