Paint quality - what's the story?

[6weekstobaby]

We have just finished building an extension and fairly major renovation, now it's time to paint the interior (yuck!) which my hubby is going to do. I haven't been able to find really good information on paint and was wondering if anyone could make some recommendations. The posts I've seen seem to be arguments between the "all paint is the same so buy cheap mate" camp and the "cheap paint is rubbish and you'll have to put on 3 coats" camp. Our thinking is that if you buy really good paint (and therefore spend more) there are benefits:
1. Less coats - 2 should give a decent deep, uniform finish
2. Should be easier and faster to apply due to more/better pigmentation
3. Should be more resistant to our daughter, who will in no time at all be the arch-enemy of our wall coatings

But all of this is theory, anyone really know the practise? We have been told that Resene (NZ made brand) is very good, more expensive but pays for itself due the above reasons. Have also heard that there is a higher grade Dulux that is good. What do you think?

[cyco]

hi 6weeks i would recommend a min 3 coat system(sealer, 2 finish coats) you really can't get a great finish with 2 coats.
i would stay with the major brand name companys.
i mainly use solver paint and usually buy the premium paint, yer it costs a bit more but it costs a lot more to fix up a bad paint job, than to buy the good product in the first place.

[davo_scuba]

we are in the same position at the moment I have just finished putting on the third coat of paint and will be going to bed soon, my wife has left the house for a few nights because the paint fumes are a big no no with pregant women, so maybe a few days away while he gets stuck in.

i think that i went a bit overboard with the painting but i put a dulux oil base sealer binder over everything (very smelly) then a dulux undercoat over everything and are finishing up with two coats (of the dulux one coat ) celin paint as i find one coat is never enough and will be putting 2 top coats on the walls but i will be using the taubmans living proof which i find is a bit more forgiving with the knocks. I always run over with some 240 grit paper and wipe with a damp cloth prior to next coat although i always find that the cornice need another coat to get it looking perfect (so i go round and do just the cornce half way through painting).
hope this helps and everything goes well .

p.s i'm no painter but am extremly happy with the results i have achieved .
pps also spell check is off, and it's late.

[Chesand]

I now use only Haymes paint - very good quality, good finish and a local Australian owned company
I got bitten with cheap paint a few years ago - it is not worth it

[jmk89]

Paint is basically pigment in a liquid medium. The medium is there so you can apply the pigment and after application evaporates leaving the pigment behind.

Why am I telling you this?

Well, my test for paint is to lift the tin. Premium pain has more pigment, which weighs more. So each stroke puts more pigment on the wall. This is a more accurate test than the price (although heavier tins of paint cost more!!!)

[6weekstobaby]

Thanks everyone, good advice, we will definitely go for 1 undercoat and two top coats with a light sand in between (seems to be the done thing). I was looking at the Haymes website last night and it seems like a good company and product. Hard to know which paint to choose but the "lifting the tin" method sounds logical! I think we will either get Dulux Wash & Wear 101 Advanced or Haymes something-or-other. Will also check out cyco's recommendation of Solver as I have heard a few people say that it's more expensive but worth it. It's off to the paint shop for us.....at least we have the colours picked out, hardest bit done! I'll let you know how the decision went...

Thanks again!

[6weekstobaby]

After all that we ended up with Wattyl ID. Hubby went to the best shop he could find and polled all the staff for their opinions. Apparently Wattyl ID and Dulux 101 Advanced have the best durability and stain resistance on the market. Wattyl ID has no odour and is slightly cheaper so the decision was made. Now he just has to put it on

[durwood]

Hi 6 Weeks,

You didn't mention if you also purchased sealer?

As cyco and dave_scuba advised a sealer is a real help especially if you are painting plasterboard especially the plaster joins. The Taubmans water based 3 in 1 interior/exterior is particually good though any will help stop the good top coat soaking into the surface and make the coats cover better saving extra coats. A water based one will work better with water thinned paint.

jmk89's advice about the pigment weight is spot on, the more pigment the better, this fact is listed as the coverage power of the paint on the tin in sq metres. good paint is about 14/16 square metres per litre. If its less you need more to cover the same area. The higher the number the better the coverage. Obviously you compare the price if the same coverage is present then the cheaper price is the one to go for. No help to you here, the major companies are usually the same so your Wattyl purchase was a good one.

jmk89 your are a bit off about the make up of paint. The pigment is powder its mixed with the resin ( vehicle of the paint) which determines what type it is, its then mixed with solvent to make it a liquid. When the solvent evaporates the pigmnet and resin are left as a solid coating. without the resin the result would be loose powder which would fall off the surface as it has no ability to stick ( much like the old calsamine). If you leave out the pigment you have the paint in a clear form.

[Big Shed]

jmk89's advice about the pigment weight is spot on, the more pigment the better, this fact is listed as the coverage power of the paint on the tin in sq metres. good paint is about 14/16 square metres per litre. If its less you need more to cover the same area. The higher the number the better the coverage. Obviously you compare the price if the same coverage is present then the cheaper price is the one to go for. No help to you here, the major companies are usually the same so your Wattyl purchase was a good one.

Durwood, aren'y you confusing two things here, weight and coverage? I agree that the a a paint with a higher coverage, given the same price, is the better buy. However, like everything else in life, "oils ain't necessarily oils"., that would only apply if both figures are given at the same film thickness.

As far as weight goes, it is in no way an indicator of the quality of the paint, especially not in wall paints! The pigment in wall paint is made up of a mixture of colouring pigment (titanium dioxide in the case of white wall paint) and a combination of extender pigments, which help increase the "flatness" (determined by PVC, or pigment volume concentration). So I can increase my ratio of extenders and decrease my titanium dioxide and keep the total weight either the same or even increase it! But by doing this I have lowered the coverage, and therefore made a cheaper paint. I can also increase the amount of extender pigments in the formulation, lower the cost, increase the weight and totally muck up the washability. So weight in NO WAY is a determining factor of quality of the paint.

Having said this, we always tried to get our trade paints on the heavy side, because a lot of painters believe the same story!

[Ian Wells]

Thats what I don't understand, TiO2 is a very cheap pigment? when I'm making Artists paints labor is the major cost component unless I'm milling cobalt or lapis.
Given that most commercial "wall" paint is made in a high speed mill in large volume and not milled on a triple roll , I can't understand why so many have such poor pigment loadings (Granted high pigment loadings take more milling but house paint makers can use dispersing agents, artist paint makers cant).

[Big Shed]

Ian, it is all relative isn't it. TiO2 is 15-25x more expensive than your typical extender pigment, however an organic yellow can be 30x more expensive than TiO2.

You are quite correct that manufacturing paint on triple roll mills is much more labour intensive than manufacturing wall paint in a high speed disperser (anything up to 20,000ltrs) at the time. However, I would say that your average artist paint is also a bit more expensive when worked on a per litre or kilo basis!

When working in 20,000 litre or bigger batches, saving a few cents per litre in raw material costs becomes quite a thing!

Also don't forget that extender pigments aren't only included in the formulation to bring down the cost, try making a flat wall paint without appropriate extenders, only using TiO2, and see where you get.

When it comes to gloss enamels, that is a different story of course, no extenders there, but there are in flat enamel and satin enamel.

In the flat and satin formulations, the choice of extender pigments becomes very important as to the final gloss and quality of the paint.

[6weekstobaby]

Well, things have progressed on this thread since I last checked! durwood, he did get sealer - Wattyl once again (sealer/undercoat) - thanks cyco and dave_scuba. Matt has sanded all the plastering work he did on the existing walls and ceilings - the house is a disaster! Plaster dust is terrible stuff... all in the name of progress though... Another question for you decorating gurus - the house is now a combination of old and new, skirts have been replaced in the old rooms and because of the uneven nature of the walls there are gaps. What's the standard process for dealing with them? Matt reckons we should just put some cornice cement in to them and sand flush but won't that make the skirts look like they vary in thickness? There are also gaps underneath them in places - any ideas how to deal with this?
Thanks for the thoughts on the "weight" issue, all Matt had to say was that the buckets of paint were bl**dy heavy, so I suppose what we bought passed that test

[durwood]

Hi Big shed ( if you have one I'm envyous)

I take your point about the the extenders but you can't put too much of them in the paint without affecting the performance of the paint. In top coats too much reduces the effect of the pigment, extenders don't offer good coverage, they fill and reduce gloss levels well but are terrible even in white at helping with colour retention.


What I was trying to explain was that coverage is the most important aspect. Good coverage means there is proper pigment there and the paint will show this by its weight but the actual measurement of how much it can cover per mitre is the one that matters.

Two paints -same price one - one covers more sq mts its the best buy. The paint thickness won't be the same the one with the better coverage, it will cover with less paint so will go further.

The measurement is obtained by using a piece of equipment called a Cryptmeter. Simple device which takes a sample of paint and determines how thick the material has to be to block out a black/ white line. The thinner the coating the more square metres coverage. Add more pigment paint gets better coverage.

I'll concede the weight is not the best method of determining paint quality but coverage is.

[Ian Wells]

Ian, it is all relative isn't it. TiO2 is 15-25x more expensive than your typical extender pigment, however an organic yellow can be 30x more expensive than TiO2.

You are quite correct that manufacturing paint on triple roll mills is much more labour intensive than manufacturing wall paint in a high speed disperser (anything up to 20,000ltrs) at the time. However, I would say that your average artist paint is also a bit more expensive when worked on a per litre or kilo basis!

When working in 20,000 litre or bigger batches, saving a few cents per litre in raw material costs becomes quite a thing!

Also don't forget that extender pigments aren't only included in the formulation to bring down the cost, try making a flat wall paint without appropriate extenders, only using TiO2, and see where you get.

When it comes to gloss enamels, that is a different story of course, no extenders there, but there are in flat enamel and satin enamel.

In the flat and satin formulations, the choice of extender pigments becomes very important as to the final gloss and quality of the paint.

fair call Big Shed, and I'd hate to see your cap-ex bill for gear to make 20,000 litres. 200 litres is big for us.
Good to know there's a paint maker in the forum and a Bendigonian as well!

Cheers
Ian

[looney]

We have just finished building an extension and fairly major renovation, now it's time to paint the interior (yuck!) which my hubby is going to do. I haven't been able to find really good information on paint and was wondering if anyone could make some recommendations. The posts I've seen seem to be arguments between the "all paint is the same so buy cheap mate" camp and the "cheap paint is rubbish and you'll have to put on 3 coats" camp. Our thinking is that if you buy really good paint (and therefore spend more) there are benefits:
1. Less coats - 2 should give a decent deep, uniform finish
2. Should be easier and faster to apply due to more/better pigmentation
3. Should be more resistant to our daughter, who will in no time at all be the arch-enemy of our wall coatings

But all of this is theory, anyone really know the practise? We have been told that Resene (NZ made brand) is very good, more expensive but pays for itself due the above reasons. Have also heard that there is a higher grade Dulux that is good. What do you think?

i hate haymes with a passion, as for some other obscure brands, why bother? marketing wins again

by a decent quality paint, don't cost that much more, premium premium every time, it's all in the tint level and coverage wether it is dulux or tootenkamen brand

2 coats should do it, but depends on the colour and what you are going over, if you are going dark over light try putting some tint into the undercoat first, little bottle don't cost much, can always get supplier to tint it for you