changing tap washers on hot water taps

[ozwinner]

Yahoo, at last, they are leaveing the poor tradie alone and picking on the architects.
Your turn Stinky.

Al

[Driver]

Originally posted by Sir Stinkalot
Would you prefer that Darren’s view be blocked by an interesting well designed house or a mock Georgian monstrosity that doesn't belong anywhere near the Australian costal environment.

Stinky

Serious question demands a serious answer. (Well, this time, anyway )

If Darren's view is to be blocked at all - and only he should have a comment on that issue - I personally would prefer the well-designed house over the mock Georgian monstrosity. No argument.

Now, as to whether the object that is currently being erected between Chez Darren and what looks like a ripper of a view is well-designed . . .

Leaving aesthetics aside - even though I'm loth to do that because it is a bit like conceding something most architects seem to believe - ie, that aesthetics in building are their exclusive preserve - which they bloody well are not. Anyway, as I say, leaving aesthetics aside the house in question is not well-designed. Its butterfly roof and internal box gutter will produce precisely the opposite result from the main purpose of roofs and gutters. Instead of keeping water out of the building, they will help to let it in.

Well-designed doesn't just mean looking good. It means working properly. Actually, it should mean both. It certainly doesn't mean achieving one objective at the expense of the other.

Col

[Barry_White]

About thirty years ago I was putting all the windows in St Vincents Private Hospital in Sydney and the architect and the site forman were having an argument.

It started to get a bit heated and the forman yells at the architect "That will never work"

The architect turned around and says to the foreman well you just build it how you see fit and then I will draw it.

[bitingmidge]

If I may make a comment here....and speaking as one who has worn a hat or two too many, and with formal qualifications in the following order House Builder (1972 tools 'n all), Commercial Window Subcontractor, ARCHITECT (registered in 1975), General Builder('77), Town Planner (1989, and a profession which is the root cause of all we see around us I may add) and finally, property developer who makes a living hiring all of the above...I feel eminently qualified to comment here (on all but matters involving plumbing and electricity, which were only mentioned to bring all this back onto the thread! Even if the above don't qualify me to wield the flame thrower, I'm so up myself.....no I wont' even go there!!
Mick:

'm sure that not all Architects are blithering idiots (snip)...the Architect:
supposedly supervised the project (snip).... this architects firm has given the lowest price for their services....

Sadly many are indeed blithering idiots..maybe most of 'em. The clever ones are off doing things that will make them a quid, and architecture is a "calling" these days, not a way to make a living. That's why they are called Architectural "Practices" not Businesses! As an employee in an architects office 25 years ago, I earned about the same as most labourers. As a principal of a firm employing 25 people, I drove a flash car and earned less than a foreman on the jobs I was "supervising". Today the situation is n better!

Pay peanuts...get monkeys. That is what the push for the lowest fee gets, and as you rightly point out, that does not produce value in the end.

The reference to "supervision", is a little unfair...what was the builder doing while this was all happening...playing golf? Or what about all those compentent licenced tradies? For the record architects are usually engaged to provide "periodic inspections for quality control purposes" the builder is supposed to "supervise"....but while there is a near enough is good enough attitude in the industry, I guess the last man on the site gets the blame!

Lastly (and I'm turning off my computer now lest it should melt) the reference to "she" is telling. I have employed many female professionals, and some make very very competent specialists. In thirty years I have only met one whom I would put in that category as far as on-site work is concerned. It's a tough life if you're a girl with an architecture degree!!

Col:

aesthetics in building are their exclusive preserve - which they bloody well are not.

No you are absolutely correct, they are also the preserve of anyone else who has at least six years of tertiary design training, and at least a lifetime of ongoing education!

Ozwinner:

are leaveing the poor tradie alone

The only time I've ever seen a poor tradie was one who had just come back from holidays in the French Riviera to find his boat had been stolen!

Driver:

In about 23 years of experience I reckon I could count on the fingers of one hand

While I don't disagree, I have to say the same goes for any trade or profession, by observation about 6% of any trade are the guys you give the next job to. I reckon I could count on the fingers of one THUMB the number of builders I would say were truly competent and didn't leave the sort of defect list Mick was talking about earlier!

Stinky (you don't mind if I call you "Stinky" do you?) Keep fighting the good fight old bean, we are close to being outnumbered on this one!!

Imagine if every house was designed by a builder .... my God .... the world would begin to look like all of those mass produced display homes that can be seen in almost any suburb

Errr aren't they? Doesn't it??

Was the house in question actually designed by an architect or some brickies mum who downloaded a free cad programme and now all the good guys are copping the flak? Perhaps if there was protective legislation in place to prevent rank amateurs with no experience designing things (the same sort of protection enjoyed by plumbers, electricians and builders) then the clever guys would come back, the blithering idiots would go broke, and we could all go back to talking about woodwork.

Looks like his mum picked the colours in any case.

Ohh, SilentC: why not just sneak out one night and paint it in clear paint...then you wont' have to look at it till..........

End of ohh so serious rant, take tongue out of cheek and check for teeth marks..... Cheers!

P

[Driver]

Originally posted by bitingmidge

Col:

No you are absolutely correct, they are also the preserve of anyone else who has at least six years of tertiary design training, and at least a lifetime of ongoing education!
P [/B]

P - mate,

(Helluva CV you've got there, incidentally).

I don't usually bite but this is such a fascinating discussion I feel obliged to keep it going. Interesting point you make about training and experience. Have you got any room in there for talent, flair, taste and judgement? There was a thread on the BB some months ago about art being the exclusive preserve of people with tertiary qualifications. This appears to be the same argument.

The lifetime of ongoing education, if taken as a basic requirement, doesn't leave any room for bright young talent - people who are prepared to use their gifts but to temper their wilder urges by valuing the experience of older and sometimes wiser heads. The one or two genuinely impressive architects (at least one of whom was under 30) that I did meet when I was still in the industry spent a fair bit of time working out how to get things built by talking to experienced tradesmen.

Col

(Did we work out how to change the washer on a hot water tap, by the way? )

[bitingmidge]

BTW, a couple of recent posts by yours truly, (at least two that I can think of) with incorrect/incompetent/misinformation (thankfully fixed by Mick and others) have probably confirmed my Architectural training!

But Barry:

About thirty years ago... the architect and the site forman were having an argument.

It started to get a bit heated and the forman yells at the architect "That will never work"

Times don't change.

If I only had a dollar......mostly it does work, or did 30 years ago, until they invented CAD and every non-thinking unemployed no hoper started to call themselves a CAD draftsman. I used to tell them if I could draw it they could build it.....but now I'm not so sure. Seen more than one job built off "as-builts"!

I've never met a site foreman who has ever had an architect who knew what he was doing at the beginning of a job, but they seem to be fast learners these architects, and foremen great teachers, because often at the end of the job, a "typical" foreman will show some (begrudging?) respect for the different skills/talents which have been displayed.

We wouldn't have leaks either if those ungrateful client bastards wouldn't keep leaving their pieces of art in the rain....


(sob!)

....returns to bed sucking thumb...(small substitute for foot, but trying to give feet up).

Cheers,

P

[silentC]

Just a brief couple of points before I retire to the upstairs penthouse for a glass of port with the old man. The building in question was:

a. designed by an architect (I know because he has hung his sign on it)
b. not blocking my view at all, which is quite splendid and I must post a picture of the view from my workshop one day soon to make you all jealous - but thank you for your concern.

[bitingmidge]

before I retire to the upstairs penthouse for a glass of port with the old man.

Oohh terribly sorry. Tell me it wasn't ME who drove you to drink!

Suggest you direct said architect to this thread before he gets ideas about submitting edifice for international award!


Night night,

P

[Old Bill]

Wow... What a lot of posts over a couple of tap washers
Regs here in NZ are a bit different, but not the purpose of my post.

Ok... We bought a block of land a few years back and bought two removal homes to put on it.
They have "Master" this and "Master" that over here, so when it came to the power we had to get the right guy for the job.
Most of the plumbing was intact with the house we bought, and I did most of the work myself to bring it up to scratch, which the inspector passed with no probs.
My daughters place on the other hand needed a bit of work, and being the independent type she brought in a "Master Plumber".
Two guys arrived... inspected the job, then sat back for a tea break and sammies. Daughter asked what was happening.
Reply... "We are short of some 40mm... but it's on its way"
Four hours passed, with very little work done, and my daughter "still" without water.
Being on tank water it came time to connect up to the pump.. (one that had been serviced six months prior BTW)..
The two guys stood scratching their heads as a slight trickle came from the garden tap, with "none" from the house at all.
Three more hours...
"Have to come back tomorrow".. they said.. and were off before my daughter could get a word in.

Come morning (11am).. they returned and shot under the house looking at the pump.
"Too much head".. said one... "You need a new pump... this is stuffed" he added. (A single storey building BTW... 6 Foot head at most)
All my daughter wanted was water, as she had three young kids.
From the back of the truck they produced a new pump, and after some protest from my daughter they fitted it.
Almost two hours later there was "still" only a trickle from the garden tap, so they checked everything, then dissapeared again for another hour... then returned saying the pump must be faulty, and they would bring a replacement.... "Tomorrow"

Day three arrived, and the "Master" plumbers returned.
By now I had looked over the job and seen the fault, which I told my daughterabout, but she was insistant on letting them finish the job.
They fitted the "new" pump, but had the same result.
They primed and re-primed... but "still" the same result.

Losing my cool I shouted...
"You've got the non-return the wrong way round at the tank"
"Don't you think we know what we are doing.." yelled one.
"No... you %^&&** don't.." I yelled... "Go look at the bloody thing"
I walked away in disgust.
Ten minutes later the water was flowing.. but no word from the "Master Plumbers" who were charging $75:00 per hour.. plus fittings.

This pair of idiots might be only two out of two thousand,but how the hell did "they" get their tickets...

The account came a few weeks later, and after a great deal of discussion the account was cut in half.
Don't know what happened to the "masters"... but we never saw them again.

[journeyman Mick]

BitingMidge,
I asked the architect who the project manager was when I started noticing all these defects and she informed me that there was none and she was carrying out the "traditional" architects role of supervising and generally looking after the clients interests. To be honest I haven't worked that much on commercial sites and don't know the ins and outs of who exactly is responsible for what but even if it was only "periodic supervision" that was being provided she should have picked up at least one of the 150 or so defects that I managed to find and document in 3 hours.
As far as aesthetics being the preserve of "anyone else who has at least six years of tertiary design training, and at least a lifetime of ongoing education!" I disagree. Aesthetics can be nurtured and developed but can't be taught, if the person has no sense of aesthetics to start with then 6 yrs of uni and a lifetime of study will still see that person producing tripe.
Architecture is partly an art form (a look at Frank Lloyd Wright's or Antonio Gaudi's work will confirm this) albeit one that is tied to a discipline/industry (building) which is literally earth bound. However like most artists in any discipline nowadays they've lost sight of the fact that they are producing for an end user and shouldn't be having a self indulgent w@nk.
Conceptual artists who place a putrid decaying cows carcasse in a gallery, chefs that produce "nouvelle cuisine" creations that consist of a few "artfully arranged design elements" ( 3 bites of steak and a few vegetable "flowers" with a swirl of gravy) on a huge plate, and architects who design buildings with no regard for climate, orientation or the actual use of the spaces inside, but simply see it as a 3 dimensional advertisement for their design sense have all lost sight of what they are paid to do.
A building, in general is first and foremost a space with a purpose or several purposes, not a huge outdoor sculpture. If an architect can't or won't design something that meets the client's needs they should give up architecture and try to make a living as a sculptor instead. Only they don't as it's much harder to get money out of the Arts Council than some mug who has a lot of money and an even less well developed aesthetic sense than the architect.
And before you and Stinky and any other architects think I've got it in for architects, that's not the case. I simply can't abide any professional (and I'm using professional in the sense of someone who does something for money) doing poor work. I've seen doctors, tradesmen, restauranteurs, teachers and machinery operators who were all either incapable or unwilling to do good work, and frankly, it's inexcusable.
Anyway, that's the end of my rave.
(No offence meant to anyone other than the blithering idiots of the world )

Mick

[Pulpo]

Eastie has my vote for foreman.

Has the Carr Government in NSW enacted legislation requiring many building developments [I assume the cost, as the criteria] to be designed by an architect?

Some sort of an assumption, that architects are not going to design eyesores, hmm!

I'm ambivalent about the house but agree box gutters have problems.

[silentC]

P,

Tell me it wasn't ME who drove you to drink

Fear not, I have a long-time association with the drink:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...?threadid=6970

PS: Still 3-4 a day. It's not that I can't cut back, it's just that I wont...

[jackiew]

no i didn't change the hot tap washer yet .... my other ongoing project - new deck ( more later :mad: ) chewed up rather more of my Easter than I was anticipating. I did however change the cold tap washer last night. I decided that as I had no idea what the internals of an Australian tap might be like I would do the easy one ( !!!!) before running off a bath of hot water ( didn't need a bath ... remember I'm English so I like to keep my towels dry ( have to reinforce a few prejudices occasionally) ). Just as well really ... as I ended up doing the mad dash to Bunnings before they closed at 9pm.

The pillar was screwed in with a 24mm square which I was not expecting and which owing to being embedded deeply in a hole in the wall was just not quite accessible to the assortment of tools which I had at my disposal. When I tell you that there was even a kitchen knife added to the tool kit on the draining board you will realise I was getting kind of desperate here. There is that frustration when the jaws of the spanner are about 0.5 mm away from reaching the sides of the square. And of course if the jaws were long enough they weren't 24mm wide!!! Half an hour later with one cheap crappy box spanner clutched in my hot sweaty hands I attacked the job again. Spanner fitted - tap pillar was so long that it got in the way of the tommy bar. But we have the technology and I have a new washer on the cold tap .... tonight the hot tap ... honest!!!!


... and my 10c on architects. Got a renovation report from one from Archicentre. Despite the fact that I'm surrounded by neighbours who have gone upwards and that I have a roof space which is big enough to stand up in in the middle already ( and no trusses ) he obviously preferred out to up ( in fact he declined to even look in the attic ). He managed to incorporate a lot of my wants in his design ( apart from leaving me with some back garden ) but some of it was totally impractical. The laundry would have opened out into the narrower of the two passages up the sides of the house. He was proposing to put water tanks out there as well between laundry and the back of the house and he put the extension on that side too. So there I would be staggering out of the laundry squeezing past the water tanks and walking about 10 metres before I got anywhere near the washing line.

The block slopes quite steeply away from the house and he was proposing that the extension be on the same level as the rest of the house. I would be stepping out onto my deck which would be at the same height as the top of the fence between me and next door - they'd just love that wouldn't they - no privacy in their garden at all.

I might take on some of his ideas but to be honest it wasn't the best investment of money that I've ever made. Trouble is its totally pot luck. Archicentre assign you an architect and if he's not on your wavelength you've said good bye to your money. And you won't really know if he's on your wavelength until he's put all the work in.

[ozwinner]

Originally posted by bitingmidge



Ozwinner:

The only time I've ever seen a poor tradie was one who had just come back from holidays in the French Riviera to find his boat had been stolen!

Awwwhhh , I wish you could have informed me earlier that me boat was gone.

Cheers, Boatless in Whittlesea

[ozwinner]

Hi Mick
You need to have a look at Federation square in Melbourne.
http://www.federationsquare.com.au/
What a w@ank they had drawing this monstrosity up, either that or they were/are on drugs.
Way over budget, but hey thats ok, us poor mugs paid for it, and I think 18 months over schedule.
How do you get a gig like that?

Cheers, Allan