changing tap washers on hot water taps

[silentC]

Jackie,

Don't take it to heart. You should know by now it's the natural response when someone from the UK starts talking about 'back home'. You'll always compare things to home because it's what you grew up with. I think you'll find that posts other than your own were the target of some of the comments made above.

Pulpo,

My Uncle works at a Bunnings in Newcastle. The store policy is not to give advice on electrical work to punters. That guy was probably trying to be helpful but he was breaking their rules by doing it.

Do you really want people to be allowed to do their own wiring? By doing so, you're basically saying that 4 years of TAFE and on-the-job training is a waste of time: if anybody can know what they are doing with a few DIY leaflets from Bunnings. Sure, just whack another powerpoint in there and a few downlights in the living room.

How many points are you allowed to have on a circuit? What affect will that change have on the operation of the RCD? Do you know how to test for earth leakage? Bad news, I reckon. I'm not saying you don't know but I'll bet what ever you like that most people who walk into Bunnings on Saturday mornings do not.

BTW the remark about plumbers and sparkies not being in demand in the UK was tongue in cheek.

[Iain]

I just a sparky in to install a split system aircon, wall oven, safety switch and several new power points.
At the conclusion of this I was presented with a certificate which I shall present to my insurance company should the house burn down.
The same applies to the plumber who installed my gas hotplates and plumbed in the dishwasher.
I will not touch gas, big electric jobs, brakes on my car and a few other things even though I am capable of basic wiring.
I have changed power points and installed light fittings without incident and have no problem with this.
I do not buy anything electrical at Bunnies as they are far too expensive and I certainly don't seek their advice.
I do agree with the GOvernment policy on electrical work as there are a lot of incompetents out there who are of the opinioin that they know what they are doing, and that really frightens me.

[q9]

Plumbing and electrics aren't that hard. No, really they're not.

The whole licensing board exists to protect members of the respective trades ie plumbers and electricians. It creates a closed shop environment where we have no choice but to employ "qualified" tradespeople. Most electricians and plumbers (especially plumbers) that I've ever met aren't that bright.

Anyone that's ever done a degree can learn everything there is to know about household electrics/plumbing in a few weeks. It isn't rocket science, but the licensing boards would sure like everyone to believe it is.

[DanP]

I'm with you q9,

There are a lot of incompetents IN trade. When I did my trade it seemed to me that the teacher was more interested in making himself look good by not failing anyone. There were several just in my class that should have failed for dangerous practices but were allowed to pass.

Making a person who was qualified do a whole apprenticeship again is rediculous.

They don't make people do it when it suits them not to. I live in an area with a high number of Iraqi immigrants and refugees. Several of them are practicing doctors who only sat an exam to be able to practice.

Dan

[Johnno]

Mention of "rocket science" pushed my button.

Back in another incarnation I was an electronics technician in Woomera ( the Rocket Range - not the gulag ). I worked in the Test Equipment lab, calibrating and servicing all kinds of electronic instruments - including very powerful CRT oscilloscopes which generated several kilovolts internally. We learned to be VERY careful - a slight contact usually threw your hand (etc) away, but if you got stuck it could get nasty very fast! The Department of Works did all the Range electrical work, and one of their Union reps decided that we were doing electrician's work if we changed a mains power lead or plug!

All we techo's rapidly had a fast 'training course' and received a fancy ticket which stated that we were allowed to work on Mains electrical equipment within the boundaries of the Prohibited Area!

The ticket got lost during one of my moves, or I would post a copy - it makes interesting reading!

Johnno

[silentC]

We're not talking about people who've done a degree, we're not talking about Iraqi doctors, we're not even talking about apprentices. We're talking about open slather on electrical, sewer and mains water plumbing for Joe Public. The kind of people who walk into Bunnings to buy a powerpoint and have to ask how to wire it up.

I ask again: do you really want these people to be allowed to do their own electrical and plumbing? Many or most of you would probably have no problem with any of these jobs. Most would probably be able to do a better job than the average 4th year apprentice. That's not the point. You can, but ask yourself if your neighbour can. Or the guy down the road. Or the guy at school who was always tying his own shoelaces together.

Without some system of exclusion, anybody could walk into Bunnings, buy all the gear and then go home and build a fire trap. Face it, not everyone is capable of understanding electrics. It's good that most people are too frightened to touch wiring. I for one don't want them to get too confident.

I agree on the apprenticeship for the qualified guy from another country. My old man is a plumber. When he moved from Victoria to NSW about 30 years ago, he was told he would have to re-do his apprenticeship if he wanted to get a NSW license. He told them to stick it and worked under another guy. A few years ago, the situation was changed and he was able to get his license by doing a refresher course.

[q9]

silentC,

My point is more that it is deliberately a closed shop to limit access to a trade. A lot of people would be quite capable of learning to do electrics, but as it stands you have to do an apprenticeship for 4 years. This effectively limits access to young people. If I decide that I want to be in the electrics business, then it is closed off to me as there is no way I would waste 4 years to do something I can learn in a much shorter time.

Most people I know would be quite capable of replacing a light switch, power point, etc. The others that wouldn't be at least have the common sense to know they have no apptitude for it and will just pay someone to do it.

As for the others, well they are just proving Darwin's point...

[Pulpo]

I'm basically sick of having so called experts, the tradesperson, doing really simply jobs and knowingly doing a bodgie job.

In the US, UK and NZ none have licence restrictions on electrical work.

I repeat SERIOUS DIY material would be great, like they have in the US, books on rewiring your house or plumbing your home.

I tend to believe the licence restrictions is more about restrictive trade practices under the guise of safety.

If the home handy person should not be doing certain work, due to a lack of knowledge and or expertise, that's for him/her to decide for themselves. Life’s full of choice

On a separate issue although related, does anyone know of a library where one can view the Australian Standards in Sydney.

I have gone to the Standards bookshop to look-up a couple of requirements but a library would great for the books are expensive.

Pulpo

[Barry_White]

I have worked in electrical and air conditioning for five years with a mate who is a qualified licenced electrical contractor. I agree that wiring a power point is simple but people get it wrong.

One day I was servicing a oil heater. I turned it off at the power point but did not unplug it.

Bad move.

Who ever had wired up the power point had wired the neutral to the switch instead of the active so when I put my hand in to unplug the terminals of the fan I got a belt and boy does it give you a shock. (No pun intended.)

I agree with Silent C all electrical work should be carried out by licenced electricians.

Even electricians die from electrocution and they are doing it all the time.

I agree the Standards books are expensive but you have to remember they have a restricted market so it is not like they can mass produce them and they constantly have to be updated. Most of the are in hard cover format except for the thinner publications but even they have high quality covers on them.

Wiring light switches may seem simple things to do but start getting into two way switching and intermediate switching and it starts to get a bit more complicated.

As far as the average person getting hold of the Australian Standard 3000 SAA Wiring Rules and understanding them fully the the 1981 version which was updated from the 1976 version and I don't know how many versions there have been since then but it has 385 pages of rules and standards which are cross referenced to one another which means what is ok under one circumstance is not ok under another.

As Silent C says you have to know how many power points to a circuit. How many circuits to a main or a sub main. What size cable to use, can you mix single core cable with stranded cable, what circuit breaker size to use with what cable and the list goes on and on.

This is why electricians do a four year apprenticeship and when they are finished they have to pass a test to get their electricians licence.

But that only means they work under an Electical Contractor. If they want to be an Electrical Contractor they then have to pass further tests before they can work on their own.

I hate paying poor tradesmen also but I think electrical work should be left to electricians.

Thats my two Dollars worth.

Remember One Flash and you are Ash

[Guy]

Saying how many power points there are on a circuit is easy when you are wiring a new house as you can physically see and count them, how ever you ask and electrician who is adding addition power points to an existing circuit and there is no way of telling as the cabling is hidden out of sight behind the plaster board.
I was told once the licencing system was introduced in the ealy 1950 by the victorian labour goverement af the time under preasure from their Union mates to stop the migrant workers doing those trades and secondly to generate revenu to the goverment. It was then adopted by other staes.
In my case i was an electrician from the UK who fully understands AS3000 plus most of the other standards, like the victorian building codes as i had to use them all the time in my previous job.
Now if i went to live in Queensland or NSW then i can get the licence automatically without going back to school or re doing an appreticship then after 1 year move back to Victoria and transferit over.
In such a small country like ours we should either adopt the same standards nationally for licensing or prehaps make it a federal isssue.
Doing a search for electriacl diagrams for Aus conditions you wont find them.
But we are all preasured into paying upto $90 hour for plmbers or sparkies to do work for us.
Im currentley working as a handyman until i find something better after beingg made redundant 2 years ago and refuse to do any plumbing or electrical work at anyones house, however i know many do. mI did work for someone earlier this year whom had bought a house owned previously by a sparky and most cabling in the house was the standard figure 8 bell wire for 240V, i discovered it the hard way buy cutting the cable and get kncked across the room. I know carry my meter with me prior to cutting anything.
As for people saying me or anyone else who came from the UK are whinging poms you have to remeber that we came here voluntary and not inside the ships, and POMS means prisoner of mother england.
I got fed up with the life there and here as well, and now looking at greener pasture in Singapore or Canada
In the schools in the UK they teach 15 year olds how to wire a plug, but even that is illegal in Aus.

Back to the topic, under victorian plumbing rules it is illegal for anyone other than a licenced plumber to change you tap washers

[journeyman Mick]

Jackiew,
there's no dumb questions, only dumb people that don't ask questions! Ask away on this BB and I'm sure you'll get lots of useful and humourous answers. BTW, Acrylic paint is generally used on exterior timberwork here as it is able to expand and contract with the timber without cracking (or less craking than the enamels) and so protect the timber from the weather. Usual practice is acrylic everywhere except those areas constantly handled or touched: doors, windows & their frames.

Mick

[gatiep]

I came to Australia from a country destroyed by violence. It was a matter of facing more violence, possibly loosing my own life or/ and members of my immediate family. I had 3 attempts on mine and have lost a large number of my family.

Now to the point. A lot of the rules and regulations I don't understand and also don't always agree with them BUT I accept them. I believe that as I am the new boy on the block, being given a chance in this beautiful country it is definately out of line for me to criticise. Let me point out to you that I hold degrees and am professionally registered in my country of origin. On arriving here I was told by the 'council': " you are over qualified" ( their words not mine) "but you have to sit qualifying exams". I opted not to do that as I welcomed a change and adapted to doing something else. I had choices: Stay in my country of origin, requalify or come to Australia and adapt.

Perhaps the solution to us newbies lie in exactly that: We are in a new country by our own choice, no Australian begged me to come, I was the guy doing the begging.........so then lets ADAPT.

We became citizens as soon as it was possible and I definately don't want to take part in the 'whenwe' syndrome, as I am in Australia now and proud of it.

Thank you Australia for accepting me and my family.....I appreciate the new life, no matter how different!

[silentC]

Joe,

I'm a third generation Australian. One of my grandparents was born in England but the rest were born here. Most of my Great Grandparents came here from England to make a better life. It's only been in the last few years that I have come to realise how lucky I was to have been born here.

One thing that makes this country what it is though is the contribution of so many people from so many different backgrounds who have made the place their home. Without getting into the pro and cons of multi-culturalism, there are so many things about this place that would be different if not for that.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you're not obligated to accept what you see here just because you weren't born here. I think you have every right to criticise. Go back far enough and we're all new kids on the block. If you see something you don't like: yell, complain, jump up and down. That's the Australian way, mate!

Guy,

I don't think anybody really knows where POM came from. I've heard a few different variations. The point is it's light hearted and no different to what would be said to me if I popped up in the UK complaining about the weather!

Very good points about the different laws in each State. Don't get me started on that.

For the record: I learnt to wire a plug in an Australian secondary school. I bet they don't teach it now.

Cheers...

[Wood Borer]

Joe,

Contributors like yourself would be welcome in any country but please stay here.

I am a seventh generation (or more) Aussie and after hearing what people like yourself have to say about other places in the world, I thank my lucky stars I am an Aussie.

Back on the topic, yes the rules don't seem fair and we know the consequences if we come unstuck after breaking the rules.

It would seem to be more constructive if people became involved in getting the rules changed rather than whinging and threatening to run away.

A Pom at work (recently migrated) told me some amazing figures about the number of Poms who come out here, crack it and go back and then realise their mistake and return here. It was something like 35% leave but 60% of those return again. Must be an expensive exercise.


- Wood Borer

[DarrylF]

Jackie,

After living in the UK for 2 years, I know what you mean about so much being different - the language might be the same, the tourists might not notice much of a difference - but many times there I copped blank stares in stores I found after a while I would modify the way I talked, the terms I used, the slang - my whole way of speaking to just be able to be understood. Many many times I hit a blank stare after using a term nobody else seemed to understand at all Then I'd come back here on holidays and have to switch back to Aussie mode. Interesting experience.

Given the quality of the electrical and plumbing work in both the US and the UK, I'm kinda glad we have some regulation here - even though I find it heavy handed most of the time, at least in spirit.

Let's face it, unless you're an idiot (and idiots shouldn't be doing their own electrical or plumbing or much of anything else), most people can change a washer or tap, or replace a plug, light fitting or socket. It's not brain surgery - as evidenced by the IQ of many of the neanderthals who call themselves 'tradies'. (preparing to be flamed )

I've met some damn good sparkies and plumbers over the years, but I've met some real butchers too. The morons who wired this place and the regulators and inspectors who allowed them to do it should be shot. The place is less than 5 years old by a quality builder and the electrical is nothing short of half assed.

Finding a good sparky is very, very difficult - and then getting them to do the job properly is just as hard. Getting sparkies and data cablers to do a decent job is one of the biggest pain in the butt parts of my job.