Virginia Tech

[silentC]

I only posted this to give you my perspective, certainly not to offend anyone.

I don't think anyone will be offended, seems like a well balanced and reasoned expression of your point of view to me.

I think that situations like the current event are aberrations and have more to do with mental health than anything else. I've seen footage of a guy who stole a tank running amok. If someone loses their grip on reality, I don't think the lack of a gun will stop them from turning their aggression on innocent people, they'll find some way.

[Brown Dog]

Joe,

I'm not against a proper debate on gun control as such, but let it be in it's own thread and headed accordingly. I won't enter into such debate but others can, if they wish.

It just seems so improper to convert the discussion on the massacre to this kind of debate, it seems so disrespectful to the memory of the innocent victims and their relatives.

Peter.

Peter
I hope I havent been disrespectful. I certainly dont mean too. I respect the postion you are coming from and Im sorry that you feel a disscussion/debate on gun control issues debase's the memory of the victims in this tragic event. But unfortunately this debate comes up everytime something like this happens. As a sporting shooter I wish it didnt.

Shooters like me get drawn in because inevitably certain portions of the media give voice to the people who believe that placing tighter restrictions on liscenced shooters is going to solve the problem. I dont have a problem with that. All I wish to do is put my point foward to contradict that, or at least point out that there is no real evidence to support their case. Because we are the ones who are effected the most. I dont mean to say that we are effected more than the victims of gun crime...its just that from my point of view placing even tighter restrictions wont help them.

As others here have concluded there is no hard and fast statistics that either side of the debate can put forward. You could throw stats at me all day and Im sure I cant find numbers to couteract them. It is a much to complicated subjuct to just fix by tossing numbers about.

My main aim in a debate like this is to hopefully demonstrate that not all shooters are knuckle dragging morons who cant be trusted, and that most of us are quite receptive to gun laws that actually work. I also feel this forum is the perfect place to discuss things like this because we are the one who can change things...boths side can have their say...as the media is mostly one sided. If I can influence one person to consider that maybe what the Governmet has done is misdirected in someways...then Im happy .

Im sorry to harp on, but this is a topic I am quite passionate about. I got my licence in 1996 just before Port Aurthur...so my whole shooting life has been entangled with politics...I would rather go shooting then be writing letters to my local MP.


cheers
BD

[joe greiner]

JeffG has summed up many of my sentiments, although I'm not a hunter and haven't handled a gun since I was in the army. I especially agree that the problem is complex and has dimensions that probably haven't been discovered yet. The latest wrinkle is that between the killings at the dorm and the massacre at Norris Hall, Mr. Cho went to the post office and mailed a large manifesto to NBC. Clearly a nut case by any definition. And even though he'd had treatment, his privacy was protected by disability statutes. It's almost a no-win situation for law enforcement.

Even if all weapons are outlawed, the bad guys will still find a way. A "zip gun" can be made with a piece of pipe, a rubber band, and a nail. That said, I've known two suicides and a homicide victim. Those were all tragedies of opportunity. We now have laws requiring trigger locks, which help a little. Even a slight delay can help to defuse rage. Maybe we all need to have Prozac added to the drinking water.

Anyone who's ever managed an engineering or construction project can appreciate the comparison with herding cats. A bit more difficult to establish social policy for a country as large as Oz or USA.

Last I checked, the SMC was limited to regrets and commiseration, which is probably more appropriate because (I think) they're based in Virginia. I have no quarrel with this discussion continuing, and the international perspective is sadly lacking from many topics of discussion in USA.

Joe

[Schtoo]

A couple of points.

The guy who killed the Nagasaki governer was a nutter. No too nutty, but thought he was more important than he really was. A long story I am not going to repeat. He was Yakuza related, and I hope they get jumped on hard by association. They need jumping on.

The previous governer of Nagasaki who was attacked actually survived. I was wrong there, but I was getting info 3rd or 4th handed. Oops.


The cultural thing is not as simple as it seems, lots of little things here and there add up to more than the sums of the parts. Confused yet? I know I am!

Here in Japan, the governing power of public behaviour is what everyone thinks of you. You go running around like a lunatic, then most folks will think very lowly of you and that's how you generally feel about yourself. The external influence can be completely manufactured by malicious persons, and the effect will be the same. Case in point, young teenagers throwing themselves off buildings, bridges, etc because someone said they are worthless or stupid, and kept on saying it like a broken record. The vent for this is introverted and usually results in breakdown or suicide.

On the other side of things is the 'western' way of thinking, where the governing of behaviour is internal, ie: I don't care what you think of me. Many people will be happy with themselves, even though the rest of us think they are completely out of their tree. The influences of peers is reduced somewhat, but can still have an effect. The problem is that someone may appear to be fine, but the inside is rotting and that rot cannot be seen or altered until it's too late.

Interestingly, the vent for internally governed behaviour is extroverted, occasioanlly a public outburst, like what we saw earlier this week.


It's not a perfect theory, but it is one from someone who has seen both sides of the coin, and seen one side from waaay inside.


The problem here is when the western thinking invades the local way of thought. That external governer is removed, and there is no tradition of internal governing which is like driving a car with no brakes but lots of airbags. It's going to crash, but the one inside is likely to be fine.

Sounds crazy, but it seems to explain an awful lot of things.

By that reckoning, a westerner here should be able to run amok, but generally they don't simply because that internal control is intact and working well enough to keep them on the straight and narrow. When that governer is broken, they do come unstuck with alarming regularity. Amazing to see, and no one here is surprised.


Ok, that wasn't exactly easy to comprehend, and I am no wordsmith, but I hope it's understandable.

I guess the short version is that a mass murder is less likely here becuase the attack is usually aimed inside rather than out.

[silentC]

I find myself agreeing with this guy.

[nutcracker]

Australia apparently still has the record for the most killing in a high school shooting apparently, with 35

[silentC]

That was at Port Arthur, not a school. But yes, apart from that, we still have the record, as more than one person has mentioned in the posts above.

[Toolin Around]

You're right though TA, who gives a &^$! anymore! Lets just ride this pony and beat it till it stays dead. "Giddy up"

I have no idea what the hell this means LOL...

I was just stating what I know is fact. I've seen numerous interviews where he has had to admit that his sole motivation was hated. The statistics he has stated in his films are just that statistics... Next time you're near a higher learning institute go in and ask anyone who teaches statistics what they really mean. Basically stats are data that can be manipulated in anyway you choose, mostly seams to depend on your political slant...

Guns aren't the problem - people are the problem. But guns definitely don't help the situation - anyone can see that. But I'm one who would rather know the REAL truth not what someone bent on hatred spews.

[RETIRED]

I think that this one has run its course. Thank you for your civility.