Help. WHAT DO I DO.

[Ian Smith]

Bricks,
This is taking a bit of turn.
Don't get me wrong, when a job requires a tradesman, then I have no option but to engage one.
But, being an ordinary householder and needing mostly one-of jobs, and then infrequently, there is no opportunity to build a relationship with anyone. I just go to the yellow pages and look for a local and then it's cross my fingers and hope he/she is good enough.
I don't try to tell them their job, and I keep out of their way, but at the end of the day I have certain requirements (like not having water run uphill) which I expect to be meet, and I try to convey this to whomever is doing the work.
What really gives me the "tom-tits" is the sort of things I outlined in my original post. I suppose I could have stopped payment, but that 's a slippery slope and, as Macca has found out, it's usually too late.
No, the onus is on the tradesman to understand the clients requirements and implement them, and if something has problems or implications then it's up to them to point these out to me - after all they are the experts. If I knew as much as they then I wouldn't have needed to call them in the first place.

Ian

[journeyman Mick]

......................No, the onus is on the tradesman to understand the clients requirements and implement them................

Ian,
I'm not sure I agree with you there, you don't think the client has an equal responsibility to communicate their requirements to the client? Communication is a two way street.

................ and if something has problems or implications then it's up to them to point these out to me.........................

Definitely agree with you there Ian.

Mick

[Ian Smith]

Mick,
Absolutely, the client must communicate their requirement, but often it's a case of not knowing enough to know you don't know - if you follow me.

If the client was knowledgeable in the field, then it's more likely, but in Macca's case I don't think she was in a position to understand the implications of her requirements, and the cabinet maker should have been taken the time to explore alternatives, rather than just doing what he had obviously made up his mind to do.

It may have cost more and taken more time to do it the way Macca wanted or it may have been impractical, but she wasn't given the option to decide

It may be obvious to anyone with some experience that provision had to made for door hinges, or that the span of the unsupported shelf was too great, but through no fault of her own, Macca didn't know that, and it's arrogant to just ignore her requirements regardless of how impractical they may have been without at least acknowledging them and giving her the opportunity to understand why.

Ian

[Sturdee]

Mick,
Absolutely, the client must communicate their requirement, but often it's a case of not knowing enough to know you don't know - if you follow me.

In that case get an architect or draftsman to draw up plans and species and get a quote on what has been drawn up. Then if it is not built in terms of the plans and species you have a case, but in this case, notwithstanding what a builder said could be done or discussed, the plan prepared by the cabinet maker clearly showns the wall.

It may be a hard lesson but she has herself to blame for not verifying the plan submitted.


Peter.

[makka619]

Yes I blame myself. Stupid, daft me. Don't trust builders they don't give a rats' ass about helping you

The kitchen was completed beautifully; by my ex tech teacher nontheless.

No hassles. He couldn’t do something as I asked. Told me later, we sat down and worked out a way to get around it. In the end we got what I wanted with a minor change.

Everything was perfectly designed and constructed to meet all of my verbal wants and desires as he agreed could be done. No surprises. Nadda. I bow down to his professionalism, and have and will continue to recommend him with such high praises whenever I can.

I spoke to some friends. I got in touch with a high contract builder. They all believe that any changes I should have been informed of.

Why would I question something when I am not expecting it to be there? When I am reassured a few times that it will not be there.

I would not even think to look at a picture that is done one dimensional and pretend to notice an extra line that supposedly represents a wall. I did not study architecture. I don’t even know the back of a hammer. But perhaps I am just blonde.

Builders should honestly care about a clients' wants. Like I said, he knew what I wanted, he wasn't disputing that. His reasoning was that after he agreed he could/would do it how I asked, he changed it because he realised it couldn't be done.

So where do I come into this change of plan? Where do my wants/desires/specifics in getting the job done come into this?

The fact is, in his book, I didn't come into it. I wanted a cupboard, I would still get a cupboard. But the details I want, well they don't matter.

It saves time from thinking about how we can possibly overcome this presumable dilemma. It saves time from talking to the builder; you know the guy who puts the thing together. It saves time from talking to me and seeing if I want to change the design because he can no longer do what I CLEARLY ask for. Yes, clearly. I did not stutter. I did not mumble.

He wanted me to come in to pay 50% deposit at reception. I asked him to draw up a quote and he said okay, come in at such and such a time then so I can get the quote. I was never to see that drawing, and if I hadn't I would not have had 6 doors as I asked but 3. So perhaps I should be grateful I caught that one change of plan out. Woot; not completely blonde, but apparently still blonde.

Thinking... thinking... thinking... I guess standing there and telling some builders what you want is pointless. As much of a waste of your own time and theirs. In the end they will make changes to your specifics without hesitation or a second thought your way.

[Ian Smith]

In that case get an architect or draftsman to draw up plans

Peter.

Sturdee,
If we are talking about a house extension maybe, but this is a cupboard for goodness sake. Can't we trust the expertise of our tradesmen to get a small thing like that right?

Ian

[makka619]

Mick,
Absolutely, the client must communicate their requirement, but often it's a case of not knowing enough to know you don't know - if you follow me.

If the client was knowledgeable in the field, then it's more likely, but in Macca's case I don't think she was in a position to understand the implications of her requirements, and the cabinet maker should have been taken the time to explore alternatives, rather than just doing what he had obviously made up his mind to do.

It may have cost more and taken more time to do it the way Macca wanted or it may have been impractical, but she wasn't given the option to decide

It may be obvious to anyone with some experience that provision had to made for door hinges, or that the span of the unsupported shelf was too great, but through no fault of her own, Macca didn't know that, and it's arrogant to just ignore her requirements regardless of how impractical they may have been without at least acknowledging them and giving her the opportunity to understand why.

Ian

Thanks Ian for your input.

You have put what I am trying to say better.

I know it happens a lot. My friends were telling me stories and a few said they have just given up worrying about it.

The hospital had a disabled persons shower installed. They stuffed it up, put the drain on the high end of the floor. So a pool of water was left in the low un-drained end.

One person asked for the tiles to be done matching the straight kitchen ones, not diagonal. Yes, yes, yes, they say, yes we can do that. The come home after work and suprise; they are layed diagonal.

And on and on.

[Ian Smith]

Macca,
Our posts crossed, and I wish I'd seen yours first.

From what you've said it is reasonable for you to have expected to get what you wanted. It is wholly unreasonable that you didn't. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.

My advice to you is to learn to do as much as possible/legal for yourself. When you think you need to engage help find someone you can trust or look for an alternative way to solve your problem.

As I said in my first post - they are their own worst enemy.

Finally remember the golden rule about getting help - "The minimum you ask is the maximum you'll get".

Ian

[martrix]

The kitchen was completed beautifully; by my ex tech teacher nontheless.

No hassles. He couldn’t do something as I asked. Told me later, we sat down and worked out a way to get around it. In the end we got what I wanted with a minor change.

Everything was perfectly designed and constructed to meet all of my verbal wants and desires as he agreed could be done. No surprises. Nadda. I bow down to his professionalism, and have and will continue to recommend him with such high praises whenever I can.

Can I ask why you didnt get your ex Tech teacher to make the cabinet?

[makka619]

Macca,
Our posts crossed, and I wish I'd seen yours first.

From what you've said it is reasonable for you to have expected to get what you wanted. It is wholly unreasonable that you didn't. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.

My advice to you is to learn to do as much as possible/legal for yourself. When you think you need to engage help find someone you can trust or look for an alternative way to solve your problem.

As I said in my first post - they are their own worst enemy.

Finally remember the golden rule about getting help - "The minimum you ask is the maximum you'll get".

Ian

You are completely right. Thankyou.

[makka619]

Can I ask why you didnt get your ex Tech teacher to make the cabinet?

He designs kitchens, not closets.

[journeyman Mick]

Makka,
it's very poor that the bloke didn't listen to you and very poor business wise. However, if you really push the case, the plan (even though he wasn't going to give it to you) forms part of the contract documentation. I don't know how/if you can resolve this satisfactorily.

In general work needs to be specified in writing or with a plan or preferably both. Discuss the plans with anyone quoting on the job and specify that they will refer to the plans/specs in their quotation. Ie: $XXXX for cabinet/tiles/kitchen/drain/whatever as per drawings specifications supplied by client. By doing this you are communicating key points:
1) When I get other people to quote on this I'll be comparing apples with apples so I'm not wasting your time
2) I know exactly what's required and what I want
3) if it all goes pear shape then i have a legally powerful document so don't f**k with me!

Mick

[JDarvall]

oh well. You'll be right. Keep your chin up. Go have a glass of wine or something.

Men. we're all baaaaaarstards. Even when we do everything right. We're still baaaaarstards.

[silentC]

It seems as though at the moment it's more important to you to get everyone to agree with you that you've been hardly done by than it is to solve your problem. How about moving on from that and looking at what, if anything, you are going to do about it.

From your telling of the story, it sounds like you have been stuffed around, there are always two sides to a story - but let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Now, what are you going to do about it? If you're just blowing off steam and don't intend to do anything, then there's nothing more to say.

[martrix]

He designs kitchens, not closets.

A box is a box.

Any competent "Cabinetmaker" should be able to go from a kitchen, to a closet, to a dining room table.

Did he tell you he couldn't do it, or did you assume he could do it?