Some hotwater pipes are not copper. Is it right?

[pawnhead]

You give up too easy.

Try some Sorbolene on that hide of yours Bricksy.

[bricks]

I was only trying to help poor jessie out, how do you think he feels causing this big rift between two woodies?

Silent C seriously i believe you, im not on the eastern side of the country, they may well use pex as standard, It will work, it is legal.

This i do know, In adelaide where i work, pex is not common, it is normally either pro fit brand or rehau brand, I have used it once, that was only in a hospital, because regular pipe wouldnt cope with the sterilization processes. Beleive it or not it was very interesting.

[NotAPlumber]

Hi everyone

I've been searching the web for a couple of days looking for info on PB pipes and any recorded problems (class action stuff in US very worrying) and stumbled across your site. Our new house is almost finished and it has a solar HWS installed with a gas booster. The house is locked up, so we can't get inside yet to have a good look around, but we know that they've used PB pipes throughout the house, with maybe a little bit of copper immediately off the solar tank and coming out of the wall where gas booster is. We don't know if this copper is a continuous line, or if they've hidden PB in the cavity inbetween.

It is possible that they've put a copper pipe to carry hot water from solar tank to the gas booster, then used PB pipes to carry the mixed water back into the wet areas. There is a tempering valve on the gas booster, but we don't know if there is another one in the roof immediately off the solar tank. They appear to be using the tempering valve not only to keep the water at less than 50 degrees in the bathrooms, but to the whole house, as well as stopping the uncontrolled solar hot water from damaging the PB piping (Iplex). They haven't asked us about this, they've just done it. Instead of a solar system with gas booster, we feel like we're getting a gas system with a solar booster, if they've put the entire water supply of the house through the gas HWS. We're also wondering about the water pressure, as water comes to the house off the mains, up to the solar tank on the second storey for heating, then down to the gas booster, where some of it gets sent upstairs again to the bathroom on the second floor (where the bath is).

We can see us getting stuck with an ongoing plumbing bill for a new tempering valve, or if disaster strikes, walls ripped out and the entire plumbing system replaced. There are several parties involved: the company that sold the solar HWS to the builder, the plumber hired by the builder to install it, Iplex who made the PB pipes, the water authority (pressure and chlorine in water supply) and the company who made the gas booster system. Making a warranty or insurance claim could be impossible, as everyone would blame everyone else.

So, my questions are: how long has PB been used in Australia or elsewhere and have there been any problems in Australia? Have any of you any experience of solar HWS used with PB pipes? Has our builder and his plumber done the right thing here, or just the cheapest options, which leaves us with a huge mess.

Hope you can help

[silentC]

I'm not a plumber either but here's what I know having looked into them myself. The gas booster should only come on when the temp from the solar falls below the threshold temp. The water from the solar tank comes through trhe booster. If the temp is higher than the threshold, the water just passes through. If it is lower, the gas booster will switch on.

It is also standard practice (probably compulsory) to fit a tempering valve to the outlet side of the HWS so that the hot water supply to the entire house is protected. We have one one ours. There is also a pressure restricting valve and a non return valve on the inlet side.

[journeyman Mick]

Tempering valves are mandatory in all new work. I've fitted PB piping to a large boat (accomodation for 48) with 8 bathrooms, plus an extra 2 toilets plus a commercial kitchen (and yes I know they're called heads and galleys). PB was used because it was an aluminium boat and copper tends to eat holes through aluminium via electrolysis. The boat has been in constant service for about ten years now, and no problems with the plumbing besides some initial failed fittings due to poor placement/angles and movement with extreme weather situations, everything has been fine.

Up till a few years ago, PB was being used very extensively on quite a few communities up on Cape York as their water supplies were attacking copper piping. I believe that it's now mostly been superseded by PEX.
PB specs call for (from memory) the first metre of line out of a hws to be
copper.

I don't believe they've done a dodgy on you.

Mick

[bricks]

That sound like pretty cheap nasty but still acceptable way to do it, the builder should have asked if you wanted un-tempered water to the kitchen and laundry, But its not illegal i dont think.

The copper from the solar panel is because in some states the water authority want to protect against "super heating" of the water on hot days, ( poly cant take it.)

What state do you live in, just wondering, im led to belive everywhere in aus except for my part of adelaide is using PEX pipe. ( easy fellas sarcasm is rife in this town)

PS I cant find anything on the popularity of Pex or PB, anywhere, only other peoples personal opinions.
Could Jessie Possibly ring the plumber who did the installation and ask him Brand and type? please.

Pretty please witrh sugar on top ill be your best fri... nah just do it

please

[NotAPlumber]

Hi, thanks for your replies. I believe that the regulations allow a metre of copper pipe immediately off the solar tank before the polybutylene pipes. I'm struggling with understanding how a metre of metal pipe will magically cool down water that may be hotter than 80 degrees in summer, to under the 60 degrees recommended for the PB pipe. It's not just plumbing that you need to understand, it's physics, plus chemistry if you start to think about the effect of chlorine on the PB.

I know that they might have met the regulations and the Australian Standards, but maybe these are wrong. We've had lots of problems with the builder (so have many other people), who are not interested in doing the right thing by their clients. I don't think that it's acceptable to have to boil a kettle to wash up your dishes, or to have your gas booster firing up to run a bath for the kids, when you've got a tank full of solar heated water that goes down a floor to the gas booster and loses pressure and temperature before going up a floor again. If this is all allowed under regulations and standards, then something's wrong with them!

Does anyone out there have solar HWS and PB pipes? Why is pex being used elsewhere in Australia rather than PB?

[bricks]

As i said bloke, Cheap nasty but is legal,
The super heating i am referring to, i know not much about but apparently it occurs within the solar collector near the connection point, I cant really say much more than that, might be like clean jocks and getting hit by busses, Just an old wives tail.

[Designsync]

NAP, friction losses one storey up, down and up again will be minimal. The pressure down will gain at the same rate as pressure up...roughly 10kPa per metre (actually 9.81kPa). Therefore no difference between going up one storey or up and down 1000 times then up one storey (disregarding friction loss).

As for the gas fired booster. It will only boost if the solar water is not at 65degC (or whatever the thermostat is set at). So I guess you could say solar boost on hot days and gas boost on cloudy/cold days. Is there a circulating pump between the gas booster and the panels? Should be! This will keep water circulating from your panels (or solar holding tank above the panels) to your booster keeping the water at a constant temperature...much more efficient than a stand alone gas hot water unit.

IMHO the pipework circulating beween the solar panels and boost unit should be copper, because as you say, the temperature may get hotter than 60 deg C. Again, my opinion is that the pipework from the gas boost to the tempering valve should also be copper. Tempering valve to fixtures can be Rehau, PeX, PB whatever, as long as its approved.

Some local authorities now request that all water be tempering including kitchen and laundry. Check with your local council on that one.

If the tempering valve ever needs replacing use a reputable brand like RMC.

BTW I'm a hydraulic drafty, not a plumber!

[NotAPlumber]

Hi Designsync

No, there is not a circulating pump from gas booster on ground floor to solar tank on 2nd storey. The water authority are trialling reducing the water pressure in some suburbs to reduce useage and we have have experienced problems with hot water from our old instantaneous gas unit before, as the pressure seems to drop very easily in our area. It just takes a few people to have their reticulation on.

There is copper pipe from gas booster to tempering valve. Generally speaking, they've put copper pipe where it can be seen - from tank to where it enters the wall cavity, and where it emerges in roof cavity above laundry. It's the bit inbetween we're worried about! The solar HWS manufacturer says it should be copper and others have told us that, such as plumbing licencing people, but if the standard doesn't specifiy, then it doesn't get done.

We should get access to the house soon and today I've bought a thermometer to test the water from the hot taps. The regs give a maximum of 50 degrees for bathrooms, but there is no requirement for builders/plumbers to give client the choice of having warmer water in kitchen and laundry.

I've managed to get hold of the main Australian Standard on water heaters, so I've got some homework to do trying to make sense of that - really hard when you're not a plumber. I might have a few more questions for you all later.

Thanks