bearers sitting on ground

[PlasterPro]

hi guys

I am renovating a Vic terrece in Melb, and have just pulled up floor boards to discover that the bearers are sitting on the ground - with some bits of timber here n there underneth (for leveling it out i guess).
The bearers are not even running into brick wall just stop at end of room!

seems to be a bit of termite/dryrot action going on allthough the bearers have held up better that the floor boards,
my only option seems to be
just pull it all out- and dig in stumps and start new floor?

I guess my questions will be

a)if i do that what is the best way cement in concrete stumps ?
b)what is the distance between stumps ? room is 3.6 x 4.0
C)do i need joists, and bearers ? then my floor boards?
d) should i hire a post hole digger?

any advice would be apriceated
P.S is all non structual as all internbal walls are brick so stumps only need to hold up floor.

[OBBob]

Hi ... that does sound dodgy ... can't be original can it? And it current has no joists?

a) I like concrete stumps.

b) If you have a way of attaching the bearers to the brick walls at the perimeter of the room then you should only need a few stumps down the middle ... but it all depends on the size of the timber you want to go with. Around 1800 spacings with 1400 span would fit nicely in that space I guess.

c) Yes, bearers, then joists at 450mm ctrs then boards. If you only have bearers presently, will the addition of joists stuff up the height etc? Deosn't sound like there is a lot of room to move. Also no sure about the required clearance to the ground ... this could also be an issue for you.

d) Don't think you have too many holes, they aren't that hard by hand (depending on the required depth.

Someone should be able to respond on the best way to attach bearers to the walls ... or maybe there is a better way out there. I think you are on the right track starting from scratch though.

[PlasterPro]

OBBob, ta for reply

yeah I think it might be origanal,certainly looks old believe house to be around 1915 circa.

like the idea of attaching bearers to wall- allthough bricks seem to be very crumbly compared to bricks today that is(i`m sure there is nothing unsafe about these ones, at the moement) so i wonder what hammer drilling nylon anchors in will do?

had planned to excavate (by hand) down say 150-200mm to get bearers off ground -there are joist also by the way.

[silentC]

Why not use LVL? Hyspan in something like 170 x 45 will easily span that room with no intermediate stumps required. You need a bearer down two opposite sides of the room (can be on stumps or you can fix a ledger to the sub floor walls) and the Hyspan runs between them. That way you get your timber as far from the ground as possible and less stump holes to dig.

[David L]

If you have to put in stumps why not use steel concreted in, they would be much easier to handle

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I wouldn't attach the bearers to the walls. It can be done but I have real concerns about the state of the old bricks.

Instead, I'd look at pouring some shallow founds around the inside perimeter of the existing foundations and running a course or two of bricks on that for the ends of the bearers to rest on.

It's also be possible to pour pads and use short brick piers instead of stumps.

This is far from meeting modern building codes but, frankly, it sounds as though if the codes were applied to your house it'd be condemned.

[Tools]

Are you sure there is not a plate at the end of the joists, sitting on top of brickwork?This is how it used to be done in the old days.Then all you would need is one stump in the middle.

Tools

[PlasterPro]

Tools -you are right, there was a plate there but termites had there way with it long ago.

I like the idea of attatching the joists to wall and keeping a bit of ground clerance-

then having two rows of concrete stumps down the guts of room and two more bearers (obviously after excavating enough dirt so that new bearer is not resting on ground)

[SilentButDeadly]

I think you'll find that the council 'requirements' are that the bears need to be a minimum of 400mm out of the mud. If you don't want to dig that much dirt out then I'd look to gal steel bearers and treated timber joists.

Regardless, try to improve the underfloor ventilation as much as possible while you have the floor up.

[Trixter]

Hi there
First time ive left info so here i go
I know what your going through,had an old terrace in Middle Park that i renovated about 10 years ago with the same problem.
I got advice from an engineer as i had bluestone foundations with brick walls and didnt want to put any load on the old brick walls.Dug out enough dirt from inside the walls to get the clearance of 400mm underfloor which you need so you can get reasonable airflow so it doesnt rot again and then put in stumps for a self supporting floor.Used F17 KDHW for all the bearers and joists as the last thing you want to do is get all your levels right and then use green timber and have it all dry out and your floor level changes.So as not to dig and disturb your existing foundations if you bring in the stumps away from the walls and then overhang the floor joists (distance you can overhang depends apon the size of timber you are using of course) it works like a treat.I used yellow tongue sheeting and it was as solid as a rock.
Hope this helps you out.

[PlasterPro]

Trixter ...never thought of overloading the walls ? as have gone ahead and fixed end of joist to walls.

Thanks for all advice guys as bearers and joists are now down with two rows of stumps down middle of room(concrete)

Floor will be layed this weekend, fingers crossed

any advice for getting last piece of yellow toung in so is resonable tight and also gets locked into tounge and grouve?

[journeyman Mick]

Do a trial cut for length by cutting a strip off the end of a sheet, and cutting to the longest length that you can work into position with a bevelled bottom edge. Cut the last sheet to this size. The skirting should cover any gap. Offer the sheet up to the tongue, you may need help (possibly from underneath) to get the sheet onto the tongue. Once started drop the other edge of the sheet and push/belt/hammer it into position. To make things easier and to protect the wall you might want to put a sheet of white coated masonite/ply/mdf against the wall, slippery side out.

Edit: If it's a very narrow strip that you're trying to fit the angle might be too severe to work the sheet onto the tongue. In this case, I'd use a circular saw to remove the bottom of the groove in the sheet you're fitting so the sheet just has a rebate on it. Use sikaflex or similar to reinforce this join.

Also, use a chisel and/or prybar between the wall and the sheet to get the sheet hard against the previous sheet then drive some wedges into the gap (if any) to hold the sheet in position while you fix it to the joists.

Mick

[pawnhead]

Edit: If it's a very narrow strip that you're trying to fit the angle might be too severe to work the sheet onto the tongue. In this case, I'd use a circular saw to remove the bottom of the groove in the sheet you're fitting so the sheet just has a rebate on it. Use sikaflex or similar to reinforce this join.

Or put it on the previous sheet before you lay it.