Split level deck with spa and pergola

[BustedThumbs]

Without fully understanding what it was getting myself into, i volunteered to build my fiance' a split level deck surrounding a spa and half covered by a pergola. It'll be between 10 and 14 metres long, about 6 metres deep, and no higher than 1 metre off the ground. I've had some experience helping others build their decks/fences/driveways/etc, but i've got to do most of the planning and execution on my own for this one. I've bought a copy of Staines' Deck and Pergola Construction Manual, but I'm hoping to draw on your collective knowledge and experience.

SWMBO has dictated a light/honey coloured hardwood deck with dark/reddish brown coloured posts (where they show) handrails and rafters. She'd also like stainless wire instead of rails. With the amount of money i'll be spending on this bad boy, i'm nervous about messing it up.

• My intention is to uses 100 x 100 merbau posts (where they show) and something cheaper for the rest. Can anyone recommend something good?
• I'm favouring teak decking but am open to suggestions.
• I'd like to use softwood for the bearers and joists to make life easier in nailing it all together.
• I'm planning on predrilling all the holes for the decking, but don't know whether to use stainless bullet head nails or stainless countersunk screws. Any advice?
• Does anyone have any experience or advice for bulding around a spa?
• Is it necessary to house the bearers in the posts or can they be bolted on side.
• I've been told to run a ledger off the house for supporting the joists. Is this a good idea and how is the best way to do it?
• I'd like to use stirrups to support the posts, but i've never used them before and would appreciate advice.

I won't be able to start until the 16th of December when i get holidays but i'm hoping to have the post holes dug the next day.

I'll post pics and updates when i can.


Cheers all,
Mike

[BustedThumbs]

Any advice from anyone would be good. Really.

[Spelunx]

Sounds like you are on the right track. I can't give you that much advice, other than RTFM. That is, Read The F-ing Manual. If you plan the deck according the book you bought, you can't go wrong. <O</O
<O</O

My intention is to uses 100 x 100 merbau posts (where they show) and something cheaper for the rest. Can anyone recommend something good?

<O</O
<O</O
Here in WA, I would recommend structural pine, I believe no matter what you use, cementing stirrups into the ground and then bolting the posts onto them is preferable to burying the posts.<O</O

I'm favouring teak decking but am open to suggestions.

<O</O
The imported Indonesian hardwoods seem to be popular, but make sure you buy them from a dealer that you trust, I was talking to a local firm the other day that told me they had rejected an entire shipment of Merbau because it had started to bow, other places would not be so fussy.<O</O

I'd like to use softwood for the bearers and joists to make life easier in nailing it all together.

<O</O
The same here, easier and cheaper.<O</O

I'm planning on predrilling all the holes for the decking, but don't know whether to use stainless bullet head nails or stainless countersunk screws. Any advice?

<O</O
I used stainless bullet nails in my deck 5 year ago, and they still look great.<O</O

Does anyone have any experience or advice for bulding around a spa?

<O</O
No, but perhaps the spa place you bought it from may be able to help? I know that 1 litre of water weighs 1 kilo, so it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out how heavy the spa will be, fully laden, that is. If the spa is already in situ, perhaps you can use something else around the spa, like paving, so that you can use a regular finish on the decking, not a marine finish. If you must surround the spa with decking, perhaps use a hardwood feature, and use marine finish on that.<O</O

Is it necessary to house the bearers in the posts or can they be bolted on side.

<O</O
My very basic understanding is that housing the bearers is better, but not essential, although I am sure someone can offer you better advice on this.<O</O

I've been told to run a ledger off the house for supporting the joists. Is this a good idea and how is the best way to do it?

<O</O
It would depend on the type of house. With mine, I simply coach-bolted the ledger into the brick, as my house is a double-brick construction. Brick veneer and timber framed houses need a little more thought.<O</O

I'd like to use stirrups to support the posts, but i've never used them before and would appreciate advice.

<O</O
Make sure they are on the same level. Again, RTFM, stuffing it up at this stage will stuff the entire deck. Don't use quick-set cement, using the regular stuff will give you an extra bit of 'wiggle room' to make sure all the stirrups are level before they set. I didn't use posts on my deck, as it was on ground level, so I simply bolted the bearer to the stirrups, dug the holes, then buried the stirrups in the wet cement, running a spirit level over the lot to make sure it was plumb.<O</O
Sorry, I am not much help, but as they say, the first time is always the hardest! There is nothing that can't be undone with this stuff, but you can certainly short-cut a lot of the basic mistakes by reading and researching. <O</O
<O</O
Goodluck!<O</O
<O</O
Jayson<O</O
<O</O

[BustedThumbs]

Thanks for your advice. That's exactly what i need.

The spa was already built when we bought the house. It's made of concrete and raised about 1 metre above the ground. My intention is to run a frame off the joists to box it in. Implementation may be a little more difficult.
Can you give me any more advice about using a marine finish as opposed to a regular finish. The spa is salt water. How will that affect the timber? I had planned on just oiling the wood, but now i'm getting the impression i may need to do more.

I intend getting one of those concrete taxis out to do the cement. How wide and deep should the post holes be if using stirrups?

Were there any tools that you couldn't have done without or wish you'd had?

Thanks again.

Mike

[Spelunx]

Thanks for your advice. That's exactly what i need.

The spa was already built when we bought the house. It's made of concrete and raised about 1 metre above the ground. My intention is to run a frame off the joists to box it in. Implementation may be a little more difficult.
Can you give me any more advice about using a marine finish as opposed to a regular finish. The spa is salt water. How will that affect the timber? I had planned on just oiling the wood, but now i'm getting the impression i may need to do more.

I intend getting one of those concrete taxis out to do the cement. How wide and deep should the post holes be if using stirrups?

Were there any tools that you couldn't have done without or wish you'd had?

Thanks again.

Mike

Re: Marine Finish, I think it would depend on how much you like oiling the deck, my feeling is that the salt water splashing the deck would eat away the oil finish very quickly, although this is not based on any experience. PErhaps a separate thread in the finishing area of this website would be the go.

I can't give you any advice on the concrete footings, other than get some advice on the concrete footings! This is a really simple area, but one that can go horibly wrong if done badly or incorrectly.

I wish I had bought a better cordless drill, they are invaluable!

Cheers

Jayson.

[Michael Breen]

Glad you raised this stuff Jayson and Mike. I am adding a verandah to the end of a once shearing shed here. I was interested in the suggestion that you not use quickset concrete so that you can jiggle and joggle the stirrups into line. I was going to put in the dry quickset and the jig and jog. Can you see problems? An "old guy" in the pub, probably younger than me, told me that if you want to secure cement footings you drive a couple of star pickets into the wet concrete on the diagonal through to the surrounding earth.
Secondly the suggestion that the stirrups should be level. (As I read it) My line of stirrups slopes down a bit, so I was going to keep the stirrups in line and verticle and then cut differing lengths of posts to bring the whole up to the correct height of the decking. Is this erroneous?
Then about timber to use. I am using old hardwood bearers from a 100 year old house we demolished in Gunning. I think the timber is probably old stringy bark or possibly yellow box. As you migh imagine it is hard, but beautifully reliable. The point of this, Mike, is had you thought of using second hand timber if the budget is tight? And when is it never tight?
All the best for the project and thanks for the advice so far.
Michael

[Spelunx]

Glad you raised this stuff Jayson and Mike. I am adding a verandah to the end of a once shearing shed here. I was interested in the suggestion that you not use quickset concrete so that you can jiggle and joggle the stirrups into line. I was going to put in the dry quickset and the jig and jog. Can you see problems? An "old guy" in the pub, probably younger than me, told me that if you want to secure cement footings you drive a couple of star pickets into the wet concrete on the diagonal through to the surrounding earth.

My understanding is that the cement needs to be correlated with the length of the posts, ie, the higher the post, the deeper the cement footing. In general, footings need to be slightly triangular shaped, ie fatter on the bottom, this will make them more stable. I have never heard of the star-picket technique, it may be right, however it seems to me that the picket would actually compromise the strength of the cement, as well as rusting over time, plus it would be damn ugly!

If you are going to use quick-set, make sure you follow the instructions carefully, too many people are filling up the hole with cement, then squirting a hose on it, giving it a stir and walking away. That is fine for a letter-box, but no good for a deck.

Secondly the suggestion that the stirrups should be level. (As I read it) My line of stirrups slopes down a bit, so I was going to keep the stirrups in line and verticle and then cut differing lengths of posts to bring the whole up to the correct height of the decking. Is this erroneous?

I am not sure about this, you will have to wait until someone with more experience comes along.

Then about timber to use. I am using old hardwood bearers from a 100 year old house we demolished in Gunning. I think the timber is probably old stringy bark or possibly yellow box. As you migh imagine it is hard, but beautifully reliable. The point of this, Mike, is had you thought of using second hand timber if the budget is tight? And when is it never tight?
All the best for the project and thanks for the advice so far.
Michael

Second hand timber is a great way to go, the downfall is that it is rarely straight, and usually in mixed sizes.

Secondly: You have ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD TIMBER!!! and you are using it for BEARERS!!! Are you CRAZY!!! :eek:
How about I purchase a bit of 100 by 40 structural pine and we swap, and I can turn the timber into a stunning cabinet, desk or something....

[Dusty]

Second hand timber is a great way to go, the downfall is that it is rarely straight, and usually in mixed sizes.

Secondly: You have ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD TIMBER!!! and you are using it for BEARERS!!! Are you CRAZY!!! :eek:
How about I purchase a bit of 100 by 40 structural pine and we swap, and I can turn the timber into a stunning cabinet, desk or something.... [/QUOTE]

Way to go, Jayson.

Great to see someone thinking things through. Here's hoping that your able to do that swap.

[silentC]

Regarding the footings, the way to go is a 600 x 600 x 600 pad and then dynabolt or chemset the stirrups to it after it has gone off. Trying to get them in place while the cement is wet is difficult and as cement goes off it can move. I've tried it both ways and believe me, it's much easier to bolt them down later.

I don't think there's any requirement for the depth of the footing to vary with the height of the post. That may be true when you are building tall structures, but not for a deck.

There's also no requirement for the stirrups to be on the same level. In fact on sloping ground that's not possible, unless you are intending to form up the sides of your pad. You can just put them in to ground level with a slight roll off so that water doesn't sit on them.

When it's time to erect the frame, you can cut the posts a bit longer and then trim them off once you attach the bearers. Are you intending to support the hand rail from the same posts? If so, you need to make sure spacing is right etc.

[Michael Breen]

My understanding is that the cement needs to be correlated with the length of the posts, ie, the higher the post, the deeper the cement footing. In general, footings need to be slightly triangular shaped, ie fatter on the bottom, this will make them more stable. I have never heard of the star-picket technique, it may be right, however it seems to me that the picket would actually compromise the strength of the cement, as well as rusting over time, plus it would be damn ugly!

If you are going to use quick-set, make sure you follow the instructions carefully, too many people are filling up the hole with cement, then squirting a hose on it, giving it a stir and walking away. That is fine for a letter-box, but no good for a deck.


I am not sure about this, you will have to wait until someone with more experience comes along.



Second hand timber is a great way to go, the downfall is that it is rarely straight, and usually in mixed sizes.

Secondly: You have ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD TIMBER!!! and you are using it for BEARERS!!! Are you CRAZY!!! :eek:
How about I purchase a bit of 100 by 40 structural pine and we swap, and I can turn the timber into a stunning cabinet, desk or something....

I know that I am crazy. I have lots of referees to prove it. I also used live in West Australia and know the joys of being able to buy old jarrah such as the stuff from the Fremantle woolstores or old dunny doors. I cleaned and stripped a dozen jarrah t&g dunny doors for the house we had built.
However, by the time I got the timber from here to you the cost would be exorbitant.
The fact of the matter is that the timber I have is free and I do not fancy buying new stuff and I don't like pine much. We got this stuff from demolishing a house which the locals wanted to torch or take to the tip. Unfortunately I do not have the skill to make cabinets or desks.
At the expense of looking like a total Philistine I am going to use two uprights beside one another and bolt the post for the roof between the two which go to ground.
On the brighter side we have built a little room inside our machinery shed from the roofing oregon 4x2 and lined with white cedar wallboards, reversing the painted side. We used an old window frame, two door frames complete with fanlight and coating the whole with ripple iron over the insulation between the studs. We renovated the old bullnose awning for over the door and window. So I suppose we have not been total wastrels.
Michael

[BustedThumbs]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Michael, my intention was to set the stirrups in place (running down a slope too) using footings 500 diameter x 600 deep. Staying away from quick dry cement. With 40 post holes to dig and fill, i'll be using a post hole digger and getting a concrete taxi to mix it all on site.

I've seen the effectiveness of driving star pickets through wet footings and into the earth. I'm trying to remove about 90 fence posts which were built this way and the damned things won't budge even using chains and the navara. I'm gonna have to dig them out. All that work just to support a dogwire fence!

I actually suggested using second hand timber. It would have matched the style of the property perfectly. Unfortunately i was overruled by the boss. She want's something shiny and new-looking.

I'm running the handrail off the posts but because the deck isn't high enough to need a handrail, i'm not too concerned with the correct spacing. The handrail is more for supporting beer than anything else.

The missus has now decreed that i shall provide her with a gravel driveway. This new strain on the budget may necessitate compromising on deck timber. I figure using softwood instead of hardwood will only require a revision of joist spacing.

I've found a handy website that's given me a benchmark for pricing some of my materials.

http://www.xsstock.com.au/easyweb3/e...ge_select-Home

[silentC]

I'm running the handrail off the posts but because the deck isn't high enough to need a handrail, i'm not too concerned with the correct spacing.

Yeah but you want the gaps between posts to be somewhat similar or it will look ordinary.

[BustedThumbs]

Sure, but how far apart should they be? I'm struggling to understand the span tables. Is there a standard spacing for posts and bearers?

I like the idea of bolting the stirrups onto the footings but how's the best way to do that and how big should the footings be?

[silentC]

Pads are usually 600x600x600. Some people go for 500x500x600. Somewhere around there. If you have sandy soil, they may need to be deeper. I like to have them founded in solid clay or on rock. Easily done at my place.

As for spacing, it depends on what you are using for bearers and joists. The table should have a list of sizes and grades of timber (F4, F5 etc) adjacent to a span. You have single span and continuous span. Single span means that the bearer sits on two posts only, continuous means 3 or more.

You can approach it from two angles: work out what grade and size of timber you want to use and then look up the maximum span for it. That gives you your post spacings, although you might want to back off a bit from maximum. The other way is to work out the spacings you want and determine what timber you need based on that.

If you want to use the stainless wire, you might need to close up the spacings a bit so it doesn't sag. Have never used the stuff, but I'd guess 1.8 would be a reasonable starting point. My deck has 2.4 spacings which suited the width of the fencing panels I used.

[BustedThumbs]

Here's a diagram indicating my current intentions. I had to rely on what i could remember of the dimensions, so it's very rough.
When i go home for the holidays i'll draught an accurate plan. This is just to give me a guide for pricing.
To summarise, i've planned to use:
- 100 x 100 merbau posts supported by galv stirrups (wet) in 600 x 600 x 600 footings spaced 2m apart;
- F17 150 x 75 bearers spaced 2m apart;
- F14 100 x 50 joists spaced 450mm apart;
- 90 x 19 teak decking.

Does this sound about right?

Also, how much cement will i need for footings of this size.

Thanks,
Mike