Basic home wiring

[pharmaboy2]

. Hypothetically, half of the members of this forum, if not more than half, have done or will in the future do their own wiring. .

mmmm, that was sort of the point, its not disimilar to the "dont speed then" response when someone gets a ticket, when reasonably obviously essentially every person speeds at one time or another. As you say, most have done some electrical work, but we got taught by somebody, yet wont show anyone new - I think that almost stands the test of hypocrisy.

Just for interest sake, and certainly not for starting an arguemnt (I think we all know where they go from here ;D ), the Uk with its very lax wiring laws (ie DIY anything you bloody like almost!) manages to have less than half our fatal electrocution rate - bit strange really.......

have a nice day

[bennylaird]

Sometimes any mug can't run wires and their work can be hidden unless the sparkie does a good job of checking.

Just joining two wires can be a recipe for disaster. I've seen all types over the years. Wire stripped with a pair of pliers that should have been retired with Noah after he finished his little boat.

Half the strands missing, twisted with oily fingers and twisted back again till they are on their last legs, then hidden away in a terminal box to provide a lovely fire igniter. It's this sort of thing that could catch you out. Training should stop it happening and I see work done by DIYers which is much better than the average sparkie at times.

Common sense and I wouldn't advertise the fact on a forum open to everyone to browse if I was going to have a go.

Would like to see the statistics on fires caused by faulty wiring each year.

[silentC]

but we got taught by somebody, yet wont show anyone new - I think that almost stands the test of hypocrisy.

I learned to wire a plug in high school when it was common knowledge - printed on the back of the packet.

I can see the point in speed zones, even if I sometimes break them. I can also see the point in legislating against people doing their own wiring, even though ... (read between the lines).

It's not a question of whether you should do it, or whether you should tell a mate how to do it. It's a question of whether advice should be given here on how to do something that is potentially dangerous and is illegal in this country at the moment (we're not in the UK).

I'd also be interested to know what would happen to the advice giver if someone, maybe not even the original poster, followed the advice in the thread. Especially if that person was a licensed sparky. There's a hypothetical for you. 15 year old reads how to wire powerpoint on the Internet, electrocutes himself in the process of trying it out. Always thought electricity was dangerous but read 'any mug can do it'

the Uk with its very lax wiring laws manages to have less than half our fatal electrocution rate

Have you got a link to some stats on that, or is it "common knowledge"?

[pharmaboy2]

Silent, I havent tackled the issue of whether people should or shouldnt provide advice - people have the right to judge their own actions in my book.

http://www.erac.gov.au/EracElectrocu...ta20002001.htm

http://www.publications.parliament.u...t/50627w30.htm

to save you the maths, Aus has a rate of 1.8/million deaths by electrocution, and the UK has 0.5/million pop, so I was wrong, ours isnt double is 3 times worse than the UK. I just happen to know this because of an arguement with an ETU member who claimed all restrictions were delivering safety for the public not protection for the ETU members. It would seem that our safety record leaves something to be desired.

[silentC]

people have the right to judge their own actions in my book

Yes they do. I don't usually make a point of telling people they shouldn't give advice about this or that, I went down this line because you and Pulse seem to be chastising us for not sharing

Regarding the stats, I haven't got time now but before that can be meaningful to this discussion, you need to strip out the number that tells us how many people were electrocuted because of faulty wiring installed by someone not licensed to do it. Not even sure you can get that from your link.

I also note that fatalities have dropped since 1996/97.

[Malibu]

Power points are available in Kmart, Big W and every hardware store. My bet is most aren't being installed properly. The solution is either:
1. restrict sale
2. give people information to do it safely themselves

A good call!
In Victoria, we're bound by our licence and the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector to supply certificates of electrical safety.
This legal document is intended to stop the dodgy electricians from doing sub-standard work, and to stop the home wiring DIY'ers from doing thier own wiring. While I agree, the OCEI is doing a great job in preventing all of the above, it's still got a long way to go before it's all done 'right'.

First up: restrict sale.
Hoo-rah! Stop the hardwares and etc from selling electrical fittings to everyone that can't produce an A-grade ticket. I can't buy explosives because I don't have a powder-monkey ticket, nor can I buy certain chemicals without a pest exterminators licence. Why? Because that stuff will kill people, just as electricity does too.

Second: Information for doing it safely.
There's a course that can be done for the correct use, installation and upkeep of electrical systems. It's called an apprenticeship and takes 4 years to complete.

People get a bit narky with me when I won't tell them how to hook up their power points, or change a light fitting. I can't even go around and do it for them, because my licence doesn't allow it. It's not a perfect system but at least the system is there to try and save lives.
I'll put away my soap-box now

[fencepost]

As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union. Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either. I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now

[thatirwinfella]

As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union. Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either. I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now

hmm... let me shoot some holes in this.
1-there is an exam like everything else. it has a 30% pass rate on the first go
2- there is a practical exam. infact, there are three exams. they are seperate theory, prac and safety exams.
3-the apprenticeship has nothing to do with plcs, it's a generic apprenticeship that bores the industrials and confuses the domestics. They need to seperate the two so that it can be more specific. so unless they are lucky enough to have been taught how plcs operate than they have to pick it up as they go. perhaps your company should consider properly training their employees on what they are supposed to or expected to know.
4-apprenticeships are traditionally 4 yrs. with the safety aspects and regulations that need to be understand it is ludicrous to think that a high quality of workmanship and knowledge of their field can be taught in anything less. No one seems to question why chefs need 4 year apprenticeships or brickies or hairdressers. but sparkies... well, electricity can't be hard. i mean, working with something that you can't see but could very easily kill you couldn't surely be... dangerous. but it takes a long time to learn how to cut hair and make soup? okay.

pharmaboy, the UK is a very different situation to australia. In a very short time you can get from one place to another, hence a greater availability of sparkies in 'remote' areas.

Many of the australian deaths are on farms where sparkies are frequently hard to come by. travelling time greatly increases the cost of the job and many wouldn't be willing to pay.

[Pulse]

what have a fueled here.....!

I guess my view on society is all about personal responsibility. To many people think they are "entitled" to something. I think if you want something, work for it, if you do something stupid its your fault, not mine.

If a guy asks for advice I give it. He knows electricity kills, I know, everybody knows. Everyone needs to know their abilities. I've done some stupid things around the house in the past. If I had this forum then I wouldn't have made these mistakes.

I'll relate a story about my 15 yo cousin in South Africa. When I was there a few years ago he had a 240V water feature outside hooked up using speaker cable running into the house, under the mesh security door, up the wall and under the light switch cover plate!!!!

I wish he did read the forum!!

Cheers
Pulse

[Jack E]

I did my wiring but I am electrical engineer so I understand electricity.

Well there you go, all this time thinking electrical engineers had no idea and finally, one turns up who "understands electricity"

Mate, please move up here, I will give you half my pay packet to work on the project I am on

I am sick of redesigning things and then having to explain to the engineers why their design wouldn't work and the new one will.

Cheers, Jack.

[Jack E]

As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union.

The apprenticeship is not jobs for the boys, it is experience based learning with the emphasis on practical learning. I do agree it has it's faults, namely that it is largely focused on domestic wiring which is a simple and minor part of the trade.
I won't waste valuable forum space debating the unions.
It is the requirement for a 4 year degree which I find frustrating. At the end of said degree an engineer is generally a whole lot less worthwhile than a fourth year apprentice as he has no practical experience.
He then spends his time designing overly complicated systems which more often than not, in a practical sense, need a fair bit of fine tuning.
On top of that, quite often the systems employed are amongst the most difficult and inefficient to install. (physically, not electrically)
I think you should have a trade background before being allowed to undertake an engineering degree.
Many qualified electricians would only need a year or two of training on top of their apprenticeship to be as good as if not better than 90% of book taught engineers I have encountered.

Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either.

I agree as far as domestic wiring is concerned.

I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now

Your exact problem there is that you are employing sparkies with only domestic experience. It as a catch 22 situation, these guys need practical experience to learn.
Perhaps you should embrace that and teach them.
In Australia at the moment electricans make alot more money in industrial construction than they will in mining/industrial maintenance. That is why most good sparkies are bolting up tray und pulling cables rather than making less money in maintenance roles.
I recently left a mine along with most of the other experienced industrial maintenance sparkies to make some money in construction for a while.

Cheers, Jack

[Guy]

Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world to be told by some beauracrat that i need to go back to school for 4 years and serve an apprectiship before i can call myself a sparky legally here it is utter crap. In Schools in the UK they teach the kids how to wire powerpoint and plugs.
I went in several years ago to the OOCEI and had this conversation with some guy who commented that all this licencing stuff was brought in in the early 50's when the unions lobbied state govs as they were worried that the new migrants would take there jobs.
i am of the opinion that legislation should be change to allow the homeowner be able to change fixed fitting ie powerpoints, light switches but not allow them to run new feeds or extend existing feeds unless they can demonstrate that they have an thorough understanding of AS3000.
I dont know how many of you have visited new houses where wiring has been roughed in, but i would estimate that 70% of these are in breech of regulations as you see cables run in at all different angles.
New houses should be supplied with complete wiring drawings showing location of all cabling and sizes used, this would allow the homeowner, electricain be able to attatch stuff to walls without worrying if the nail he is knocking in is going to hit a hidden live cable. It would also allow the electrician to know how many power points are on a particular circuit if the homeowner is not confident in doing the work.

Hardware store should not be allowed to sell cable for fixed purposes, and stores like Bunnies should not allow there staff to give info on what type of cable and how to terminate, on too many occasions ive been in there and seen some kid 18-20yo telling and drawing for customer what he has to do. ( but dont they say on TV we have qualified tradespeople)

[Malibu]

i am of the opinion that legislation should be change to allow the homeowner be able to change fixed fitting ie powerpoints, light switches but not allow them to run new feeds or extend existing feeds unless they can demonstrate that they have an thorough understanding of AS3000.

The legislation was changed a few years ago (at least it was in Victoria, I don't know about the rest of Aus) and a new licence was introduced called "Disconnect/Reconnect". The idea behind it is to allow "like for like" replacement of anything electrical and allows any non-electrician to be able to do repairs, such as GPO (power point) replacement, etc, but not do new installations.
For some strange reason which I don't agree to, you have to prove you need the licence. All the fitters at work have one as part of their skills requirement, but there's a few other people around that were giving a flat "No..." when they inquired about doing the course (Such as: the robotics programmer and members of our technical department).
Unfortunately, they also exclude the general public from this licence, which I don't agree with because the main basis of the D/R licence is safety with electricity, and your home handyman would benefit greatly. It would also allow the DIY'ers a legal footing for home repairs.
I could be wrong, but if you're interested in the D/R licence, make some calls and see if you can get to do the course. You might be able to.

I have a feeling that the "keep it in the trades" part of the deal is a union related stipulation. Don't start me on unions!

[silentC]

Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world

You're always welcome to go back.

[bennylaird]

After seeing the English plugs etc in Malaysia I'm supprised there aren't more fires etc. They were nasty, fuses inside most of them and so many different sizes to suit different loads.