Better to use Bearer and Joists or Slab?

[silentC]

whereas apparently lots (most) trusses down south are pine

Yep. You can pick up a big one by yourself. We had one guy up in the roof and two on the ground passing them up. Some of the tall ones were a bit tricky to stand up, the first one was a challenge.

[Art Martin]

Art,
I've seen a lot of people run into trouble as owner builders, and I've also seen some success. SilentC has the advantage of having some trade skills and family members in the trade. My examp0le of standing trusses was probably extreme, but illustrates what might happen. Also, 99% of trusses up here are hardwood and heavy as hell (cyclone tie down considerations), whereas apparently lots (most) trusses down south are pine. Lighter, not so splintery and infinitely easier to handle. As part of your research I'd suggest you get yourself the "Australian Owner Builder's Manual" by Allan Staines (reportedly the brother of the notorious Seaman Staines :eek: ) Read it cover to cover until you uinderstand all the technical terms and the processes involved. It will give you some insight, not nearly as much as working in the trade, but it's a start.

Mick

Yep, thats the first book i'm going to read. It seems be the "owner builders bible". I'm sure I'll be reading a LOT of books and asking a LOT of questions to a LOT of people before I even decide whether to go ahead.

[Art Martin]

Yep. You can pick up a big one by yourself. We had one guy up in the roof and two on the ground passing them up. Some of the tall ones were a bit tricky to stand up, the first one was a challenge.

It's nice to know that it can be done without a crane. Mick had me a bit worried that it could not be done without a crane. What about frames?

SilentC, did you find that you had to use a lot of expensive equipment like cranes?

[journeyman Mick]

Yep. You can pick up a big one by yourself. We had one guy up in the roof and two on the ground passing them up. Some of the tall ones were a bit tricky to stand up, the first one was a challenge.

You'd be hard pressed to pick up an average truss with two blokes around here. On smaller jobs we'd reinforce one of the internal walls and get the truck/crane to pick the whole bundle up and place it across the walls. Then it would be a matter of a bloke on each end, pick up the truss and drag it into position walking along the top plate. Third bloke stands up the peak, sometimes off a trestle, sometimes using a length of stud tied/screwed/nailed to the top of the truss. Walking the plate is no longer allowed, but the use of the hook on frames and ally planks speed the process up anyway. It's bloody hard work, especially on a day when it's in the mid 30s and the humidity is in the 80s. Geez I'm glad I just build chipboard boxes now!

Mick

[silentC]

It's quite common for builders to use cranes for standing frames and trusses and lifting large beams. Work cover is one reason for it. We just found that our labour was cheap so many hands made light work. As for frames, that was just a two person job to carry the frame (pre-fab) to the appropriate spot and stand it up. For a two storey place, you would probably either make the frames in situ or get a crane to lift the lot up to the floor platform and stand them from there.

The main heavy machinery we used was a traxcavator to clear the site and dig the cuts. We used a backhoe to dig footings and a bobcat to do site clean up and cut driveways, back fill trenches and sculpt landscape. You hire these plus their operator on an hourly rate between $60 to around $100 depending on which machine you need.

The other machine we used was a concrete pump. This just makes life easy for the concretors. If you have good access for the truck to get to all sides of the job, you don't really need one. If you have lots of labourers and a matching number of wheelbarrows, it can be done that way.

It really depends on your site. I know of a site here where everything had to be craned in, including the bobcat! It's quite common in places like Sydney too where access can be a major problem. We are on a 2.5 acre block so it wasn't an issue for us.

[silentC]

hook on frames and ally planks

Are you still allowed to use them? We were supposed to scaffold the whole job. Stuff that! We used the hooks to put the roof on though. Very character building hauling a 6m sheet of corro up and passing it to the guy on the roof when you're standing in the middle of an 8" wide plank 5 metres off the ground and a little gust of wind comes along!

[journeyman Mick]

Are you still allowed to use them? We were supposed to scaffold the whole job. Stuff that! We used the hooks to put the roof on though. Very character building hauling a 6m sheet of corro up and passing it to the guy on the roof when you're standing in the middle of an 8" wide plank 5 metres off the ground and a little gust of wind comes along!

To be honest I haven't really kept up to date with what's allowed and what isn't as I havent the time to go to the seminars or the need. I do know that about 4 years ago I went to one and they were pushing the fact that walking the top plate was now illegal and that the hook on frames more than paid for themselves in increased productivity. So 4 years ago they were legal, although I have a feeling that you might have to use two planks side by side and clamped together in the middle now.

I've had lots of character building and have got the injuries to prove it.
Oh, and did I mention the fact that all I do now is make chipboard boxes (boring, repetitive work, but a waay easier way to make money. )

Mick

[elphingirl]

Hi Art

I don't mean to give you a hard time - just force you to think through some scenarios. We wholeheartedly admit that wwe took a risk to try something different, and payed for the priviledge - although we're happy with the outcome - BUT we took steps to protect ourselves from major financial strife, and always had back-up plans. Things don't go according to plan - don't expect them to.

If you take on owner-building, then you basically have a big unsecured loan - you carry all liability. If something happens and the bank forecloses on you, you will either have to sell on the market quickly (for peanuts), or borrow from someone else and get a builder in double quick. No builder I know would take on a half-ownerbuilt house without building a BIG buffer into their quote.

Insurance alone (because of the owner-builder thing and the length of time) cost us over $4000, and is usually a condition of mortgage. This reflects the very high risk of theft/damage to a slow building project. There's pretty much only one underwriter in Aus, so little competition. Do not run a site without public liability insurance!!!

Also consider Worcover issues. It's one thing if you hurt yourself, but if your best mate comes over for the day and hurts himself enought to go to hospital, it is my understanding that they will report this as a workplace accident (even though no money changes hands) and you may be investigated and fined by Workcover. Event hough it's not a professional project you are still bound by all the regulations of a building site.

Also - last thing I promise - if your Council is tough, then there is no way they will let you move in at lock-up, not till CofO. We built in the country, and stayed up on weekends only. Our building INspector turned a blind eye to this (primarily because we were making progress - albeit slow). We were pretty careful not to put him in a position where he had "have to notice" it - cleaned up majorly before he came in for inspections.

Like your tradies, a good relationship with your Inspector - Council or private - is a really good resource for helping you solve problems.

Good luck working it out.
Justine

PS The Allan Staines book is only the beginning, I would spend a few hundred dollars talking to a helpful builder about your ideas and the realities of what you want to do. If you pay for advice you'll get better answers.

[journeyman Mick]

When I did my last general safety induction (Qld) it was pointed out that anyone who works on a site (as long as they don't wander in off the street without being asked) is a "worker" for the purposes of workercover. Ie, if you ask your mate to give you a hand and he falls off the ladder, then he's entitled to cover. If you haven't paid your premiums then you're faciong hefty fines on top of everything else. Note that this is in Qld, and may vary from state to state, however, even if not covered by workcover they'd be well within their rights to sue you for loss of income or a huge amount if they lose an eye or a hand.:eek: This is really extreme, I know, but these things can happen, especially when you mix novices and power tools. It's a litigious day and age we live in and it would be extreme folly to engage in a project such as this without covering all bases.

Summary:
If you've asked them to help and are paying them in beer, owed favours, timber, meals, brownie points whatever, they are a worker and entitled to workcover insurance.

Mick

[ian]

Summary:
If you've asked them to help and are paying them in beer, owed favours, timber, meals, brownie points whatever, they are a worker and entitled to workcover insurance.

Mick

Art,
note well what Mick said AND realise that IF an owed favour makes your mate a worker, then you as his "employer" are obliged to provide a safe place of work, including ensuring safe methods of work are employed especially when it comes to lifting roof trusses and wall frames and fixing the roofing.
The operative word is "ensure" which is usually interpreted as meaning if you're not using the "approved" tool/technique then you are personally liable.
In the event of a serious injury, you're looking at a potentially crippling fine — which is not covered by your insurance — and in the worse case scenario, a preventable workplace death as wella s the fine it's potentially "off to jail you go"


treat this as food for thought


ian

[silentC]

if your Council is tough, then there is no way they will let you move in at lock-up, not till CofO.

There is a legitimate process for moving in prior to a Certificate of Occupancy. We applied for, and were granted, an Interim Certificate. It will probably be years before we get the CofO, if we ever do.

[Art Martin]

Thanks Again.

All good points that really need to be investigated in depth as part of my due diligence and research.

[ian]

All good points that really need to be investigated in depth as part of my due diligence and research.

Art

forgive my presumption, but your turn of phrase makes me think that you are a lawyer
are you?

ian

[OBBob]

Or an engineer.

[silentC]

No, he's an IT manager!