Wanted: thin, hardwearing, glossy finish for solidbody guitars

[MoonShine]

'Duco' is a thing I'm going to seriously look into rather than specifying Nitro.
Not sure if the Duplicolour range of sprays, which have a clear lacquer, is the same animal?

I'm going to have to be practical about this, the expense for getting a compressor, spray equip, and then lacquer in bulk tins would be unneccessary considering the amount of times I'm likely to use it? Would dearly love a decent workshed to go along with it but Keno and Lotto haven't been too kind lately....LIKE 30 BLOODY YEARS!!!:eek:

Here are links to a couple of piccy's of the old guitar, was most impressed to have picked it up in a local hockshop for $25. Granted it had a broken neck but that was easy to repair and there is no way anyone can pick the break, no way! Luckily it was the mahogany under the rosewood fretboard that had snapped, a lot of lining up, decent glue, and G-clamps fixed the business.

Now what has been a godsend with my poor shortrange eyesight, is having invested in a pair of Opti-Visors. Got them sent down from a Qld mining supply company for $30...great for hands free work like soldering, woodwork, PC repairs...etc etc..

Anyway, here are the pics.

http://adam.com.au/pebholst/Pauls_Files/SaeHan_1.JPG
http://adam.com.au/pebholst/Pauls_Files/SaeHan_2.JPG

The head is now completey different than shown in #2, its a lighter veneer the same as the sunburst finish on the body and a lovely burl birdseye maple.

[Phil Mailloux]

I believe that Duco was a name brand of the Dupont company waaayyyy back when. Yes it was nitro but I doubt very much it's still in production today.
Duplicolour isn't nitro.

[Paul B]

From what I understand, normal "Duco" nitro finishes are too brittle for use on an acoustic guitar. The people at Durobond told me that they'd worked with Gerard Gilet to develope their guitar lacquer. Basically just added some plasticisers to give the finish a little more flexibility - guitars move around quite a lot in response to changes in humidity, you want the finish to move with it.

For really fine grits of W&D paper, try your local jewellers supply places. I got a bunch of different grits up to P4000 from a jewellers supply place in Pitt St Sydney.

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned Ubeaut hard shellac as a finish for acoustic guitars. I've just sprayed my second guitar with it and it's turning out great. I'll post some pics when it's buffed.

[durwood]

Duco is the brand name for Du Ponts lacquer. It was available here in black and white only up to about 10 years ago. Before urethane enamels became common the black was the best black you could get. The quality of the product was far superior to the industrial ones that were also available. There was no way you could use the industrial grade (furniture) NC lacquer on a car it couldn'r even be buffed to a good a gloss as the Duco came off the gun.

Acrylic lacquer black was withdrawn from the market shortly after its release (it cracked badly) and NC black had to be used in its place for years. The pigment and the acrylic resin didn't like each other. The NC black is still widely used on grand piano's but not many of them are made in Australia. Overseas its still available especially in countries with lousy weather like England they used it on a lot of their cars (Rolls Royce for instance) up to a few years ago Like all paint companies profit is god. Supplying just a few of us is not their idea of making money so we miss out.

Nitrocellulose lacquer used on cars "Duco" is more flexible than you think. If a panel gets smashed it has to crumple up pretty bad before it cracks. The test yused to be to bend a metal panel around a 5mm dia rod into a "U" if it didn't crack it was accecpable for use.

By the way leather lacquer is nitrocellulose lacquer, the difference being you add about a tea spoon of castor oil to a litre of mixed lacquer. So don't pay for so called special lacquer when you can make it yourself.

[MoonShine]

"By the way leather lacquer is nitrocellulose lacquer, the difference being you add about a tea spoon of castor oil to a litre of mixed lacquer. So don't pay for so called special lacquer when you can make it yourself".

Now we're cooking with gas! Happen to do leatherwork and have a decent supplier a stones throw away from where I live, will certainly be looking into this one. Thanks yet again.

[Mick C.]

Hi, i'll be honest and say i was too lazy to read every post in this thread, but i havn't seen anyone say to use a modern automotive 2pak clear coat??? I've seen a number of people say to use acrylic and say its great!, well its actually really really crap when it comes to hard and gloss compared to a modern 2pak clear coat. Granted with acrylic you can polish out a scratch or mark, cause its quite soft, somethign you cant do with 2pak because of how hard the finish gets, but a shine that will last and look like water when done properly!

Go and see an automotive panel shop and ask them, or get them to do your painting, or get a hundred mils of clear coat and hardner and thinnners and give it a go, but again, you will need a spray gun, only way to do it if you are serious!

[China]

As mentioned previously rustins plastic coating I have and still use this product extensively I highly recomend it. Goblet turners who turn usable goblets i.e they can be washed also use it. it can be brought up to glass like finish that rivals french polihing

[durwood]

THe experts who do guitars seem to indicate here that polyurethane finishes affect the sound given out of the instrument. Thats why they use the lacquer.

If this is true 2 pack polyurethanes probably effect the sound because they are a lot thicker coating than lacquer. If you brushed a 2 pack enamel (thats 2 pack polyurethane,2 pack acrylic urethane (auto clear) or any other enamel) each coat would be equal in thickness of about 3-4 coats of lacquer. So you would have a really thick layer of clear over the it. I suspect the Rustins plastic coating would be the same.

2 packs are hard, if you want a hard surface they are the only ones to use. BUT they are dangerous to use, especially if sprayed and the dust when they are sanded is just as dangerous. You need good ventilation and a good mask (at least).

I would personally use 2 pack acrylic urethane enamel (auto stuff) on wood. It is far superior to all the others for all jobs except a wooden floor. Estapol is harder and made to do just that. I have motor vehicles with timber on them and it enables wood to be exposed to sunlight without any problems (estapol is for interior use.)

MICK C: 2 pack auto clear can be buffed and polished, in fact its one of the auto trades biggest problems they have as the painters knowing they can buff, apply the paint poorly and then take extra time polishing out the surface when its supposed to be an off the gun finish.

Unless you can get a small quantity off someone who has the material the problem for most people is the costs involved. You have to buy quantities far in excesss of what you want. A litre of the hardener can cost up to $80-$100 and for a litre of clear and you only need a 1/4 to a 1/2 the amount of hardened, it also doesn't last long once opened so it can be an expensive exercise. A lot of the paint systems have 3 hardeners and 3 thinners also and depending on the temperature of the day will depend how you mix it.

I havn't mentioned the equipment you have to have especially the correct gun or it won't come out well and a good mask (and a booth would be good) and then you have to be good enough at spraying to actually get the right result. I think thats why the paint has been bypassed in the dicussion. Its not for amatures, but I'll agree with you it is the best finish you could use - if its not going to affect the tone of the guitar.

[MoonShine]

Update, have rang the local Leather dealer and they have a product in a pint, (roughly 500ml?) containers of stuff called Neatlac. Chap over the phone reckons it has on the bottle that it is alcohol based?....so not sure if this is the same animal?
He did assure me it is a thin high gloss finish. $20 a bottle and will be easily enough mixed with 1/2 litre of thinners (and a teaspoon of castor oil) for one guitar so really hoping this is the real deal.
But will definately be spraying onto a laminated piece of scrap board or something first.

Too expensive a guitar to be experimenting with shellacs, 2pacs etc.. Many if not most guitar producers insist on a thin, hard setting coat to retain the tone. Thickish coats of shellac, polyurethane or eg., epoxies will kill it apparently.
Alright for a cheapie brand but way too risky and devastating for an expensive acoustic which cost over a $1,000 retail/new.

Can I please ask what the castor oil actually does when mixed?...this has got me intrigued.

[durwood]

moonshine: if its alcohol based its like shellac not NC.

500mls = 1/2 teaspoon

one teaspoon per litre or a quart in imperial measurement.

[MoonShine]

Ok thanks Durwood, will ring around to other Leather dealers on Monday.

[durwood]

Moonshine, me thinks you have shot off on a tangent here.

Leather lacquer is NC lacquer with the addition of a placticiser (castor oil in this case) all paints usually have a flexing agent to add if you want to sprays a flexible surface . The NC needs to be really flexible if you spray the leather., On a car you would add it to car paints for the soft flexible plastic parts. The more flex you want the more you put in -UP TO A LIMIT

It shouldn't be needed for wood, you could add a fraction of a teaspoon full but NC by itself is OK for wood.Thats what its mainly being sold for these days. If the wood is going to move as much as you can move leather on your lounge or your shoes then its going to fall apart. The point I was making is that special guitar lacquers are probably a waste of money, a good quality NC would be just as good ( maybe even better) and all they would have in them is something no better than the castor oil. IF ITS REALLY NEEDED?????

If the wood moves enough to crack NO paint will prevent that.

[MoonShine]

"shot off on a tangent here..."?

Um! I was merely enquiring what the castor oil additive actually does thanks Durwood, and my mention that I'll be checking out other leather merchants is because you gave me the tip that thier lacquer is NC, I haven't had much luck getting NC so far.

I am simply after a supplier of NC in Adelaide but getting thrown around all over the place at the moment but at least my phonecalls are cheaper than running around in the old bus lol.
Latest possibility is a Wattyl product called Nucat....again, will find out tomorrow morning.

I definately don't want a flexible finish for the guitar, want it thin, super hard fast drying and with a much superior gloss to all other finishes.

Will also be returning a call to Mirotone asking for a Precat...

[durwood]

Moonshine: Both Wattyl and Mirotone used to make straight NC ask them if they still do. As they were the furnature trades main suppliers I would be suprised if they didn't still.

Either way ask them to send you the techniclal data sheets for the products you are interested in. Usually thiese paints come without anything of use on the label as they expect the trade to know the info.

Every company has to havedata sheets for each product (health and safety) but it contains all info, thinning ratios, drying times number of coats, what to swallow if you decide to have a swig of it!!!!!!etc

[soundman]

lets just clarify a couple of issues here.

Nitro laquer is prefered by instrument makers for a couple of reasons.

Its tonal performance is due to the fact that in the cured state it is crisper than many other finishes, shelac is at least as crisp andat least as hard.

Another tonal reason is that it can be laid on very thin........ very very thin... and the laquer is happy with that... lots of other finish products have problems with the chemistry and the reiability of the cured film if you thin too much or lay on too thin.....hell there are people out there spraying nitro with 80% thinner..... try that with just about anythiong else.

It is fast..... realy fast you can put down 4 coats in a day no problem if the wheather is going your way.

It isn't a fussy finish, you don't need to sand past P180 if you are in a hurry and following coatsmelt into previous coats with no need to sand to achieve a key.

You can do all sorts of funky stuff with it by adding tinters....... If you check out your instrument history the sunburst finish started in the "nitro era" because with sprayed nitro.... you can.

Nitro is still available very easily... it is usualy called pre catalised laquer. Mirotrone sell scads of the stuff every day.... yess you have to buy 4 litres but it keeps forever and it isn't expensive.

nitro is still available in clear and solid colours.

If you want a realy glossy..... realy glossy finish you almost certainly will need to buff...... look realy closely at the last realy realy shiny black guitar you saw.....you will see signs of being buffed.

Shelac is a reasonable option for stringed instruments.... it too is hard... crisp and can be layed on realy realy thin.... it is prety cheap and easy to get in small quantities.

you don't have to french polish to use shelac.... it can be brushed(if you are clever), wiped, sprayed.... people have been doing stringed instruments in it for centuries.

Automotive acrillics and twopack stuff are wonderfull things but if you are fussy... not on youir gituar.... while they are hard & resilient they are also elastic and more flexible. They also have to go on thicker in the gun and require thicker film thickness (AFAIK)

Gloss.... you may think you want the highest gloss.... on black or solid colours almost certainly..... but on clears comming back a little to 70%, 80% or 90% gloss is sometimes smart 70% can still look PBshiny on a timber surface and wont show imperfections anywhere near as badly.

Just an aside... a bloke I know stripped his fender and had to play some gigs.... so he put it back together...... he says it was horible....had a whole heap of harsh top end and twangy rubbish going on.... just about drove him nuts all weekend....he got some finish back on it and it sounded like its old self.

yes finish does mater on a solid body electric......on both electrics and acoustics the whole process asumes there will be a finish on the gituar... so dont get to bent and twisted about it all.

Just some stuff to think about.

cheers