Bushfires - Whodathought

[dazzler]

Hi

Stunned again this morning when the morning show had the boss of the Rural Fire Brigade on "stunned" and "amazed" at the "unexpected" fires that happened the day before. I remember him being "amazed" at the unexpected fires that burnt canberra suburbs to the ground.

Is it just me or does this seem to be "ground hog day" each year with the cops chasing fire bugs, the RFB chases its tail putting out fires, we lose a couple of brave firefighters, the RFB bosses come on the tv and look all sad and important and "surprised" at the "once in a lifetime fire" that has just destroyed a heap of houses.

When is there going to be some proactive action and decent action plans put in place to deal with them. IE

- Split the land into large sections that can be controlled through backburning without any firefighters having to go into dangerous bush areas.

- Each fire zone is given a local area code. All landowners in these fire zones are responsible for their homes fireproofing - cleared of bush and rubbish, gravity fed sprinkler system for the house etc.

In this way when a fire starts they can broadcast that zone is at risk and all people need to evacuate and initiate the sprinkler protection systems. The firefighters can then backburn from the most appropriate border that has already been cleared as a fire break.

Surely this is not rocket science or is it now an industry that is self feeding.

cheers

dazzler the crusader


ps. talkin bout bosses here, not the good people at the fire end

[bennylaird]

Come on Dazzler, we can't just run in and bulldose native land for firebreaks or burn off. We might hurt some poor endangered earwig or something.

At least the Greenies protected the Grampians from burning off etc and saved the flora and forna and that didn't cause any problems?????????:confused: :confused: :confused:

It was just unlucky that a once in a lifetime, suprising, unexpected lightning strike torched it all

[Buzzer]

Hi,

This bushfire thing seems to come up every year now. It seems to me not much, if anything has changed to prevent damage, to property and life.

The volunteer firefighters at the firefront, in my opinion do a very good job under difficult circumstances.

Do we see the so called Greenies that stop prevention measures, ie cool burning, help to fight these fires? Well my answer is definate no. They are very quiet during bushfire season, the silence is deafening.

My 2 bobs worth.

Cheers.

[silentC]

Each fire zone is given a local area code. All landowners in these fire zones are responsible for their homes fireproofing - cleared of bush and rubbish, gravity fed sprinkler system for the house etc.

I don't know about elsewhere in Australia, but in NSW this already exists. The RFS managed to get the NSW government to enact legislation that forces local councils to administer the new fire zone building code. They had to draw up a map of their shire and mark designated bushfire zones on it. Anyone building in one of those zones has to get a bushfire risk assessment done and then you are given a rating - Moderate, Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, Extreme. What you buiild and how you build it is governed by your rating. We were assessed as being level 2, which meant:

1. Non-combustible or fire retardent materials for all external applications
2. Bronze or stainless steel flywire screens on all windows
3. Wire mesh on brick vents and roof vents
4. Leaf guard on all gutters
5. Verandah and decks to be laid with minimum 5mm gap between boards - no tongue and groove and no baseboards.

Plus, we have to maintain an "Asset Protection Zone" 40 metres around our house, which means no connected canopies, no dense undergrowth etc.

If you are on tankwater, you must hold in reserve a minimum of 10,000 litres of water and fit a Stortz connection to your tank supply so the RFS can use it in the event of a fire.

It's basically a yard and a half of red tape, implemented at the discretion of the council. To the best of my knowledge, no-one from RFS has ever set foot on my property or the properties of my neighbours to check that these things have been complied with. We submitted plans with details of the materials we intended to use but that was as far as it went.

We have a strip of bush that runs down a gully in the middle of our property. It is about 20 metres wide. This is the bush fire hazard. I suppose it could catch fire and maybe we could be subject to an "ember attack" so it's worthwhile considering these things.

The only trouble is, it only applies to new developments and just down the road from us, there is a log cabin that is surrounded by bush. Today, they would not be allowed to build it.

[Tonyz]

We have the bl#####y inquiry still going (from the Eyre Pen fire '04) after 18 months. the f###in CFS keep bringing other morons to try and crucify the guy who is being blamed for starting it. Monday nite it was under control and the honchos were warned of making fire breaks due to weather change comming on Tuesday.
Did they? did they what? oh no we cant make fire breaks we have to get permission from Native Vegetation board so for that #### we lost 9 lives and over 30 houses
Last week they have the balls to say they have never lost a fire.
Praise for the fire fighters.....but somebodies gonna kill the head office yet.

Sorry for the raving. Those dickXXXX that get on TV should stick their heads up from where they pulled them out of

Tony

[JDarvall]

Dazzler,,,,,,its complicated I think mate.....like ####en everything else.....(sorry I just felt like swearing too !)

Tell you what should be at least done to change firefighting, it should be to out the 'volenteer' bit. ...........PAY US ! YA BASTARDS ..... I don't care if its $2/hour. Be better than sweet #### all. ...... I like to do my bit, but that means long hours not making money to support my family.

[dazzler]

Hey Apricot

Yep its complicated but there just doesnt seem to be much thought put into it and sadly nothing changes.

What i was trying to say as opposed to mumbling along is that if we choose to live in an area that is bush fire prone then its up to each householder to protect thier own patch by precautions that are mandatory or you are not insured.

Why is it that silly billy can build a house in the bush, pay insurance like the rest of us, do nothing to prevent it gettin burnt down and expect volunteers to come and put thier lives on the line and each year die.

During the big sydney fires a couple of years ago, another unexpected event , there was a bloke interviewed leaving the area north of kuringai. The media asked him if he was worried and he said "nope" cause he had a gravity fed sprinkle system and he flipped the tap on as he left.

The next day the media flew over his place and it was still standing with green grass around the house and everything was fine. Now if this guy can be independant and look after his house then everyone else can.

My new place in Port macquarie is in a bush fire prone area and has cost us a lot more to meet the guidelines. Money well spent.

Sadly our firefighters are in most cases brave, selfless and determined to fight a fire and save property to the end. There is also a certain bravado amongst some and sometimes they die a horrible, horrible end (seen the results up close).

But my main whinge is with those paid a lot to run the show and seem to be left in the old days. Australia was turned into a fire dependant country by our indigenous predecessors so it doesnt matter if large sections are burnt out and I reckon they need to fall back and expect large sections to get burnt each year, knowing that the properties and people are safe because they have been made to prepare.

Wow, sound like a crusader

[sbranden]

Here is a low end grunts version from South Australia. I am a CFS member (local volunteer fire service) and National Parks Employee. We conduct quite a few prescribed burns during Autumn and Spring each year. I am not involved in logistics, but it seems that it is often hard to find enough people/ resources to do the burns. Also, they are quite expensive to run.

I don't think that the fire management types would find enough volunteers to do many more burns, especially in low population areas. There needs to be more money available for either a professional service, or to help offset costs to volunteers. I can't see any other way of finding the resources to actually get this right. Volunteers don't particularly want to be monitoring a fire all night and most work during the day.

Our fire season for this year has just been bought forward to 15/10 which is the earliest ever after the driest winter on record. There is not a great deal of time to conduct burns between conditions that are too wet (fuel and soil moisture) and conditions that are illegal or dangerous.

Also, land holders are going to go crazy over the next 2 weeks trying to burn off what they can and a fair percentage of these will get away. Further reducing firefighting resources available to do burns.

Even a small 20-50 hectare burn requires dozens of people and often some crews for several days after. Also this litigious world we live in means that you had better make sure the fire is completely blacked out before turning your back on it.

Fires are going to get a great deal worse as we experience climate change. I think the first thing governments need to do is accept that climate change is real, and work out what we can expect. Perhaps then they will be able to manage the fire seasons better instead of just denying it exists for political reasons and ignoring reality. SA has finally started talking about it, but nothing much will happen until there is national recognition and money becomes allocated. Slowing down greenhouse gas production would be even better, but that is not going to happen in this political climate.

Let's hope everyone is safe this year.

shaun

[journeyman Mick]

...............- Split the land into large sections that can be controlled through backburning without any firefighters having to go into dangerous bush areas....................

Dazzler,
unfortunately in extreme conditions you'd need fire breaks, bare to dirt a few Km wide between each section .
As Shaun says, conducting hazard reduction burns takes a lot of resources. ( A back burn is a fire lit in the path of an oncoming fire to rob it of fuel, a hazard reduction burn is one lit before there's a wild fire (proactive) in order to reduce the fule load and thus the intensity or even occurence of any wildfire).

In other states, it seems the power to use fire as a management tool has been taken out of the hands of the fire brigades and has been vested in government environment agrencies. In Queensland we have a system of volunteer fire wardens that can issue permits for their district. This means that the local community can make decisions about how and where to use fire to reduce fuel loads. Note that this is only for private property, or, with relevant permission, council or main roads land. However brigades can and do work with forestry and parks and other government agencies. this all takes time though, and as Apricottripper points out, we don't get paid for this time.

I'm currently tring to organise some burns with Queensland rail and also on vacant council land, road reserves and a couple of vacant freehold blocks. I've spent hours on it so far and I shudder to think how much I've spent on phone calls. I could be making money instead or building our own kitchen. I think part of the problem with rural fire management, in Qld at any rate, is that it seems that only lip service is paid to the value of volunteers. This ultimately leads to people dropping out. There's very much a culture amongst the permanent staff that looks down at volunteers and even auxilliaries (part time urban fire fighters). I've documented quite a few issues and brought them to the attention of the powers that be, but they've just been dodging the issues unfortunately.

With more people moving to Qld and more people living in I-zones (interface zones between suburbia and bush) we're going to need more new volunteers and we need to attract and retain rural people that have used fire as a tool since childhood. Unfortunately QFRS is making changes to the Rural Fire Service without any consultaion with the volunteers and I don't think it's going to help this at all. All the top jobs are being given to people with urban fire fighting backgrounds, not rural/parks/forestry as in the past. They've removed the Rural Fire Service logo from all the rural fires staff fleet vehicles and are sticking red and blue light bars on top so they look like all the urban vehicles. Really smart thinking there, whoever made that decision has never taken a 4wd out bush and driven it under low branches. To say nothing of driving a landcruiser with red and blue lights on top into an Aboriginal community up on the cape, good way to get a star picket throught the windscreen .
Apparently we're no longer the Rural Fire service either, getting a name change shortly. When you pay peoples wages you can make wholesale changes without consultation, but if you do it in a volunteer organisation you'll end up either with no volunteers or with a fight on your hands (I'm tipping the latter, might even fire off a few letters myself )

So yeah, I cant say I'm really impressed with the people up the top either. Case in point: Urban auxiliary brigades get pagers, when we have a fire the operator goes down our list of contacts, first person to get the call needs to contact the rest of the brigade themself. So when I get called to a fire, I find myself running across the road, trying to get dressed whilst making calls to get a crew together. We could get pagers, but we'd have to pay for them out of our own budget, which isn't very big. We're all part of one organisation we keep getting told, but it's very obvious which parts are seen as valuable.

Sorry about the rant fellas, but think, for every one like me that kicks up a fuss, there's probably twenty that simply stop turning out for fires.

Mick

[Buzzer]

I agree with journeyman Mick.

I am a volunteer 1st Officer with our local Rural brigade. I am the first one that is called, if no answer they go down the list.

The amount of paper that is sent to me and the brigade Secretary (also a volunteer) is steadily increasing. There is no way I am going to read all this, I may be irasponsable, but I bin it.(so sack me and PAY someone to do the Bull@#$%).

One good thing is we have a good Fire Warden (also a volunteer) who is very reasonable to get fire permits from to do hazard reduction burns.

[silentC]

Why is it that silly billy can build a house in the bush, pay insurance like the rest of us, do nothing to prevent it gettin burnt down and expect volunteers to come and put thier lives on the line and each year die.

They can't. Not in NSW. Not any more. Did you read my post?

[Farm boy]

We did the right thing this year and applied for a hazard reduction burn, all paper work in place and out of courtesy tell the local fire brigade that we will be doing a hazard burn.
these guys must think they are it:eek: they gave the wife the 3rd degree and went ballistic when we said the rural boys gave us a permit
lesson learnt big hate between rural sevice and regulars and poor land owner in the middle trying to keep his yard clean

[journeyman Mick]

...................lesson learnt big hate between rural sevice and regulars..............

Around here I'd say "hate" is probably too strong a term. There's severe frustration from the volunteer side because most urban firies just don't understand what we're on about and, unfortunately, think that because they're paid "professionals" they know all there is to know about fighting bushfires. From what I've observed they know heaps about fighting structural fires but know precious little about and are not equipped to fight, a running wildfire. There have been a few incidents around here where their lack of knowledge has been simply astounding and could have resulted in deaths.

For instance, ordering the lighting of a backburn, in the middle of a hot, dry, windy day, from the bottom of a hill covered in 2M high grass when the "break" consisted of nothing more than a line of grass flattened and wet down. This was when the fire was pretty much under control and posed no threat. Of course the fire escaped and burnt a fair bit of the country side.:mad:

From the urban side, well, there's disdain for the volunteers from what I've seen and experienced (and continue to experience). Around here it's gotten to the point where some of the rural brigade officers will not attend an urban owned bush fire to help as they have no wish to work under people who waste their time and endanger their lives. There's real problems that aren't going to improve until the heirachy acknowledges their existence and addresses the issues. You think that the health system in Qld is in crisis? Well there's just as big a problems in the fire service,, they just haven't reached the press yet.

Mick (all fired up )

[Farm boy]

fair call mick
you wou would think every one would try to get along as they are all doing the same thing putting fires out
greg

[journeyman Mick]

fair call mick
you wou would think every one would try to get along as they are all doing the same thing putting fires out
greg

You'd think so, but there's too many egos involved. The other thing is the basic philosophy behind the approach to fire control. I went to a wild fire in an urban owned area. I was in the middle of cooking tea but went because of the extreme "urgency". When I got to the fire there was three red trucks there and a helicopter water bombing. If it had been in our own area we probaly would have monitored the fire and let it burn to a road or creek or other control line ratehr than wasting thousands of taxpayer dollars on extinguishing it. If you extinguish every wildfire it just means that the fuel is still there and unless you can prevent all and every form of ignition (arsonists, lightning etc etc) well, you'll just have a bigger fire next time.

Mick