Toowoomba, water recycleing

[Bob Willson]

This current water shortage is just a VERY temporary thing. We just haven't had any decent cyclones in the area for a while now. If we had, then we wouldn't even be having this thread.
Cairns had a big storm recently - do they have a water problem?
Most of our present problem is about water management and lack of infrastructure to ensure that the same thing doesn't happen again.

If we had built the dams when it was deemed necessary by the town planners whose job it is to know these things then we would now have plenty of water. Instead of this, we listen to the greenies and every ratbag group that can get up and make a noise and then bow to the group that makes the most noise.

Redcliffe City Council was looking at building a water desalination plant. They didn't because it would have doubled the cost of water. So what? I would rather pay more for water than have to rely on the dubious and temporary solution of recycling our used toilet water.

Or how about we just cover over our dams to stop so much evaporation? That alone would save more than we would ever recover from recycling.

Build dams NOW. LISTEN to the town planners. THINK - don't just react and follow the herd.

Responses please?

[felixe]

I agree with Bob and Mick. Growing up in Tassie - we never had (or probably will have) a water shortage. When I was younger I lived in the Huon and we were on tank water, when it got dry in summer we pumped from the creek, having to boil water for drinking. I now live in Brissie, and am amazed by the amount of water my surrounding locals use. When I arrived in Brissie, I could not believe that tanks were not used here considering the bloody rainfall in summer, (we get the local waterboard letter praising us for using "below average" for our area) We are now searching for a rainwater tank to install!
We have (had) plenty of dams for power generation and water storage, waterworks reserve out of Hobart is a major catchment from Mt Wellington, it is nestled in between the upmarket suburbs of South Hbt and Sandy Bay, is a popular recreational place for locals, as is Risdon brook Dam, both of these were built with no real resistance and help sustain the local population.
It is now interesting to note that our Mayor has come out and said we are going to have to recycle water as there is no solution, and at the same time the Premier says no recycling without a referendum. From the noise the Mayor is making it looks like referendum or not - we will be getting some form of water recycling?

[bitingmidge]

LISTEN to the town planners.

Formal Town planning should be abandoned completely; the market has been the most successful dictator of planning in mankind's history.

Town Planning per se has really only had a century or so (half that in this country) to completely stuff up whatever it is that it is trying to achieve. If there is a viable development solution, then the infrastructure will be provided to service that solution. If there's no viable infrastructure, there can't be viable development. Ironically, it's the planning that throw's that equation out of whack!

Strategic Planning, now that's a different kettle of fish. Setting broad infrastructure plans based on reasonalbe forecasts of capacity is the only responsible objective, and the planning part has been undertaken.

It's just that consensus keeps getting in the way of implimentation.

Thanks to our gutless elected representatives, there is simply no longer any need to educate anyone, no need for specialised engineers, planners, or experts of any kind. Whenever those consultants propose anything, consensus rules. I guess that fixes any education crisis though!

People who watch Big Brother, Lost, and Celebrities on Ice, get to say what they think (as if they know what thinking actually is) and usually what they think isn't at all related to:
a) the problem in hand
b) a solution to the problem

When I arrived in Brissie, I could not believe that tanks were not used here

Until a few years ago, tanks were illegal in Brisbane, as they were deemed to carry significant health risks from two fronts. Firstly they contributed significantly to mosquito breeding as not everyone keeps their tanks perfectly insect sealed, and the instance of Ross River Fever is seriously on the rise.

Secondly, there was very real evidence of heavy metals and other polutants reaching concentrated levels from roofwater runoff (particularly lead - now reduced due to it's absence from fuel).

The current encouragement of tank installation is a political knee jerk reaction, which hasn't sought to educate the proud new tank-owers that their water isn't actually clean and from the sky, it's wash-down from their roofs!

I will be very interested to see what knee jerk reaction happens when someone realises that not all tank water is pure and clean, and the first bouts of kids with chronic fatigue or bad teeth or whatever start to appear.

The provision of tank water is a noble objective, but then so is the maintenance of public health in a large urban area, where the population is not given to taking responsiblity for the provision of it's own infrastructure servicing (apart from transport).

I can almost guarantee that the recycling of waste water would contribute a far safer outcome in terms of public health, than requiring all to have tanks.

I can also guarantee that charging appropriately for the provision of water will also reduce consumption to managable levels.

cheers,

P (Urban anti-tank missile!)

[Wood Butcher]

Mick have a look here at the "no" argument
http://www.toowoomba.qld.gov.au/inde...d=784&Itemid=5

Now I know that at least half of the page is scaremongering BS but some of the alternatives are listed there.

As I said it is viable on the long term, but we need short term answers.

[journeyman Mick]

.......................I can also guarantee that charging appropriately for the provision of water will also reduce consumption to managable levels.....................

Which is of course, all that will probaby happen for the next decade or so. People will jump up and down about the cost and the media will beat it up and then the media will find a juicy sex scandal, people will go back to bitching about the rising petrol prices and life wil return to normal......
Normal, that is, until the next really dry spell......

Mick

[Clinton1]

I didn't vote, I drink water from Toowoomba managed supplies, but live in another shire - therefor I didn't count!

Some of the mistakes:

They held the referendum because the Federal Govt told them that all Fed Govt funding would be cut off if they didn't. Therefor decision makers couldn't make the decision and get on with it.

The TCC decided that recycled water would go ahead, and ran the YES campaign. This alienated a lot of voters as they didn't believe that they were being presented with all the options, i.e. they didn't get a complete argument for both sides, so they couldn't make an informed decision and voted to keep things as they are.

In the last 2 weeks before the vote there was a lot of information in the local paper (and national) about problems in other countries that recycle in respect to the chemicals that cannot be filtered using existing systems. i.e. the hormones that women on the pill excrete, which is causing drama's in aquatic animal populations and for which evidence is mounting that it is impacting on human health. Basically a scare which wasn't addressed.

The concerns of Downstream Irrigators were not addressed, which was a mistake. The downstream irrigators contribute heavily to both the local and the entire Central Qld economy, and there are significant linkages between the local community and the industries that would be affected. While a compensation package was hinted at, this wouldn't have addressed the removal of a significant contributor to the local, and wider, economy. Basically, the Yes campaign was presented as a solution to ONE problem, a lot of people saw it as creating a lot of problems in other areas and these concerns were not addressed.

There was the usual viewpoint that rural people "just don't get it", and that if its good for the city it should happen. As the community has strong rural links, this came back to bite the YES campaign. Rural people have been dealing with this problem continually (water supply), and didn't see a lot of commonsense in the Yes argument. I think this came back to bite the YES campaign in the bum. Basically - a lot of the voters family and friends exist solely on rainwater, so with all the negative arguments re drinking poo, the simple answer of "you don't have to, we don't - just put in tanks" was compelling.

The No campaign put forward a few commonsense arguments that were not addressed via the Yes campaign. In effect the No side got two arguments - 1. don't drink poo, 2. what about all the other options?
The No vote can also be seen as a vote to sensibly explore other options and to present those options to the community. (thanks Fed Govt, now there will have to be a Referendum for all future 'high expense' water solutions:mad: )

Finally (puff, puff ):
The Yes campaign was closely associated with a push for further population growth. There was/is an argument that all of SEQ is too densly populated, and there is this big, wet, rich, undeveloped area just up the road.

[bitingmidge]

I'm not really anti-tank by the way, just anti tank-will-solve-all-our-problems.

For a really sensible piece of tank literature, the National Environmental Health Forum produced this a few years ago:

http://enhealth.nphp.gov.au/council/...df/rainwtr.pdf

Cheers,

P

[Rossluck]

I agree with Bob Wilson that, in a way, Toowoomba's situation is just an abberation caused by a drought. I lived there for ten years and water was simply not an issue, and I don't think that the population has increased by that much.

But Peter Beattie's interest in the situation is a lot more about Brisbane and the Sunshine and Gold coast areas. The boom continues here pretty well unabated, and just as the roads can't handle the increase in traffic and the medical infrastructure can't handle the health requirements, the water reserves can't handle consumption. Put simply, the QLD Government has been caught out. And I don't just mean Labor. Joh and his successors were similarly guilty of not having the vision to "Set[] broad infrastructure plans based on reasonable forecasts of capacity" as Bitingmidge put it.

I saw the Toowoomba vote as a chance to implement a system that may actually help the ecology a little. The Condamine River suffers from a huge ecological drain, firstly with dams in it's catchment area, and then by a range of water-thirsty farming activities (especially cotton). This of course means that it is a vastly different river from the one that white settlers found.

[journeyman Mick]

I'm not really anti-tank by the way, just anti tank-will-solve-all-our-problems...............

Whaddaya mean "our" problems? Not my problem, or Outback's,) just all you wasteful southern urbanites!

Mick (getting ready for (un)civil war and the anti-tank midgessile)

[Doughboy]

I, being in Canberra, am used to water restrictions. We are now encouraged to install rainwater tanks and if we do so then we can register with our local powers that be and recieve a subsidy. Catch is once you have registered your tank the next and subsequent years you will be billed for water catchment. A bigger farce I have never heard of. Makes you really want to do the right thing.

I have put a tank in with a pressure pump on it. I use the grey water for garden use only, but I know that rainwater can be used in the laundry and toilet now even if the rainwater does end up with heavy metals and not suitable for drinking use it in other ways. This will help with dam levels and extend current drinking water availability.

........... just a thought from a bloke raised on the land during a drought.

Pete

[felixe]

I want a tank, but not to drink out of! god no, I live in inner city Brisbane and with all the Sh#t in the air and all the traffic it would be nasty!
We never had ross river fever in Tassie, so bugs were not an issue.
But I do think tanks are a good idea, good for the garden and washing cars, house etc. Don't know about the laundry.
Midge, whatabout the thingy that you put "inline" between the downpipe and tank to dump the first runoff from the roof?
I also think that landscaping of gardens should be better, we changed ours and with good plant selection, use of gravel, timber and mulch we have managed to capture most water so we don't have to "water" and we have a thriving garden. Death to lawns I say!!!!
Even as a "knee jerk" reaction it is better than nothing at all, which is what has happened up until now.
I am all for recycled water, and I am also in favour of charging more for the water we use, especially if it helps to fund an upgrade of the old water pipelines in Brisbane that seem to be failing more and more often.

[felixe]

BTW, what do you put in your tank to stop bugs breeding?
Is there a chemical or is the only solution to make it bug proof.

And let's not forget John Williamson - "Stop Dengue - Ay!"

[bitingmidge]

There was/is an argument that all of SEQ is too densly populated, and there is this big, wet, rich, undeveloped area just up the road.

So all you buggers that wozn't born here should just pizorf somewhere else then!

The trouble is not with too much density of population, it's actually a lack of density to enable us to do anything efficiently. If we shoved all the population of SE Qld into an efficiently planned, easy to service area we'd have no troubles at all. Of course we'd have to decide whether we wanted to be farmers or urban dwellers, no longer any more of this half acre of resource wasting self indulgence.

By way of comparison, the population density of Manhattan is 25,845.7/km²

The population of Queensland on the other hand is 2.1/km²

For ease of calculation, let's say the Population of SE Qld is 2m (it's actually a little more or less depending on where you get your data.

IF we were to plonk everyone in a city built to Manhattan's density, we'd fit in about 80 km² which I suspect is somewhat less than the geographic area of Toowoomba, or maybe it's a similar area.

Imagine that! If everyone in SE Queensland lived in an appropriately dense environment, the longest journey one could make to visit a relative would be to the other side of a town which was 8k wide x 10 long.

Toowoomba already has some 700k of sewers apparently, they'd only need to be a bit bigger.

There'd be bugger all water wasted on washing cars, and watering driveways, we could all walk to work, and we'd only have to walk 4 k's in any direction to get to unspoiled and unpopulated countryside!

The cost of deliveries of all sorts of goods would disappear overnight. I suspect that the mower repair people would be unhappy, but they could always get into the window cleaning business.

Don't give me this too much density claptrap!

cheers,

P

[Clinton1]

Tanks produce part of the solution, if you hook them to the washing machine, hot water and the laundry/toilet - and water the vege patch with them.
Also, they can be connected to a filter.

Appropriate useage is a term that springs to mind.

[journeyman Mick]

BTW, what do you put in your tank to stop bugs breeding?.............

Goldfish












True story, a bloke I know had mossies breeding in his tank and rather than fix the tank so the mossies couldn't get in (not hard to do) threw some goldfish in to eat the wrigglers.

Mick