Finishing Education Required

[John G]

OK, I admit it.
I consider myself a reasonably competent woodworker, but admit I am a complete imbecile when it comes to finishing.
I am about to start making an entertainment unit from cherry veneered mdf, and I was going to finish in estapol (gasp!). Because it is a large piece, I thought I was going to have to buy a spray gun in order to get an even finish.
But that's before I started reading this site.
Let's just say that you all seem quite "uncomplimentary" about using estapol (or I assume any sort of poly-u). Before, everything was so simple, but now it's all laquer, wax, shellac, french polish, danish oil, tung oil, buffing oil, the list goes on...
As you can imagine, I am a bit confused by the number of choices, as well as nervous about using something completely new, and so I welcome any advice. I guess my main question is what the hell should I use, but I know there is no one correct answer to that question.
I am after a warm, semi-gloss finish that will enhance the natural cherry without staining or discolouring it.
I suppose I am interested in finishes safe for veneer. Do any known finishes react badly with veneer adhesive (e.g. the metho in shellac)?
Also, do some finishes apply more evenly than others, so that I don't need spray equipment?
Or is the answer that it doesn't really matter? And that any of the finishes I use will give me good results?
Remember that I am a tragic estapol man (although I think I used shallac at school once). I have read most of the topics in this forum, as well as read all the brochures in the stores. But so many all seem to do the same thing, it just confuses me more. How do I decide? (sob!)

[Kev Y.]

John, During MY apprenticeship days (painting and decorating) which are now only a distant foggy memory, I was told that a good glossy enamel (or poly-u) finish was the best way to go..

Now I am not so sure. I have in the past 3 years used wattle speed clear which is an acrylic finish not hard and glossy but soft and subtle.

I have also used an oil finish on a glass top coffee table, one which did not stain or detract from the timber finish.

There maybe some here who will argue one way or the other, but personally I would go with what ever you feel comfortable and safe with.

then maybe later on a project that is not as "precious" maybe experiment with some other timber finishes.

Kev.

------------------
IF at first you don't succeed, relax your, normal.

[This message has been edited by Brudda (edited 15 August 2002).]

[Tim the Timber Turner]

I have suggested to Neil that we/he conduct a finishing workshop probably at his place.

I would like to learn to use spray finishes. He tells me that he may have weekend access to the furniture factory next door, which has fully equiped spray booths.

Neil stated we would have to ask Shane to come down and teach us the spraying tricks.

A 3 day workshop would enable us to cover many different techniques including oils, waxes ect ect.

I would suggest a weekend in March. 3 days of work and learning followed by 3 nights red wine, beer, good food and great company.

Shane, sorry to put you on the spot. I have not yet asked you if if you would be willing.

SO what do you reckon Guys & Girls, anyone interested??

Cheers Tim


------------------
Some days I turns thisaway, somedays I turns thataway and other days I don't turn at all.

[Kev Y.]

good food, good wine, and a finishing lesson! COUNT ME IN!!!!!

[Mick4412]

John,
I too am in the middle of making an entertainment centre.
The top and sides of the unit are made from a burr-walnut veneered timber. They are actually the bedheads from some quite old beds that I was given. The Veneer on each of the panels is in 4 sections - each one a mirror image of its neighbour.
I had previously used a similar panel to make a coffee table, and finished that table with shellac. I am doing the same with the entertainment centre. If you have never French Polished before, believe me - it is relatively easy, and extremely satisfying.

[John G]

Thanks for the responses so far...
I'm not sure about a workshop as I am in Canberra, so it might be a little difficult to coordinate.
Can I ask for some clarification:
1) It's fine to use ANY sort of finish on veneer? i.e. the metho in shellac won't just suck into the mdf, or dissolve the adhesive?
2) What is best to use if I want an even finish on a large surface without using a sprayer? Are oils better than shellac? Or is either fine as neither will give me brush marks?
3) I always associate shellac with french polish = mega glossy. If I want a semi-gloss, do I avoid shellac?
4) All the things I read about finishing with a wax (e.g. after applying an oil): is this only if you want a gloss finish?
Hope these make sense and that I'm not embarrassing myself with stupid questions.
John.

[Vonrek]

G'Day John, Im no expert on finishing but i think i may be able to assist in answering your questions.

Can I ask for some clarification:
1) It's fine to use ANY sort of finish on veneer? i.e. the metho in shellac won't just suck into the mdf, or dissolve the adhesive?
One of the beauties of a shellac based finish is the quick drying time between coats. This is because the alcohol solvent has a very fast evaporation time, leaving behind a coat of shellac which can be recoated in a few minutes. Because of this i would doubt very much that the alcohol would have a chance to soak into the mdf as it doesn't hang around long enough to soak into much at all.
2) What is best to use if I want an even finish on a large surface without using a sprayer? Are oils better than shellac? Or is either fine as neither will give me brush marks?
I've read different ideas on working large areas but i prefer to try and do a section at a time and move on, overlapping a little.
3) I always associate shellac with french polish = mega glossy. If I want a semi-gloss, do I avoid shellac?
The french polish procedure uses shellac, but it is the specific procedure of building a coating and then polishing this that gives the ultra shine of FP. a few coats of shellac will give a satiny sheen that can be adjusted for higher gloss by adding more coats. Thinning the shellac further with more alcohol will make the coats thinner and slow down the glossing up.
4) All the things I read about finishing with a wax (e.g. after applying an oil): is this only if you want a gloss finish?
I've seen some great resulsts with the Arbo-oil and Arbo-Wax products. You can buy these in a kit and they can be used independantly or on their own. The wax can be used to polish the oiled surface or on its own to create a very subtle finish with virtually no colour change but a fairly durable finish. Check them out.

Hope these make sense and that I'm not embarrassing myself with stupid questions.

No questions, when well intentioned are stupid and asking lots of them is a sign of intelligence, not a cause of embarrasment (my thought for the day!!).

Hope my reply helps, the only other advice is to get a few products such as shellac, oil and wax and just give them a try on scrap which is the same as your project. Different woods will respond differently to different finishes and this way you can experiment. If you buy good quality stuff you will laways find a use for it with other projects.

Cheers, Tim

PS. if you do use an oil finish be careful about using it on the inside of a closed space. Some oils can go rancid and begin to stink. shellac is alsway a better option here.



[This message has been edited by Vonrek (edited 19 August 2002).]

[Shane Watson]

Vonrek's response is fairly acurate. I won't go into to much detail but suffice to say, Tim hit the nail on the head when he mentioned giving each product of your choice a trial run on some scrap. This is by far the best way for you to see whats going to happen with the techniques and products you use.


Tim the timber turner - email me when you get something more definite!

Cheers!

[coastie]

I always thought all the best finishing schools were in Switzerland!!

[Iain]

Thanks Coastie, I'll take that as a compliment, I finished my secondary schooling in Zurich

------------------
: http://community.webshots.com/user/iain49

[coastie]

Anywhere near the Hotel Baisilea,what a great place!!!!!

[DPB]

In response to Triple T's suggestion for a finishing school of the woodworking type, count me as a participant should this become a reality.


------------------
Woodchuck Canuck
Good luck is the residue of good planning!

[John G]

Hi Again,
Well I took your very sensible advice and made a couple of samples. I tried some FeastWatson Fine Buffing Oil and some Burnishing Oil (Organoil I think). (Sorry to use your competitors, but it's all my mate had for me to borrow.)
Anyway, the finish for both was fine, but not quite what I wanted. As both were tung oil based, the finishes were very similar (although the burnishing oil was slightly darker).

I was after something that will give me a darker, yellower finish. I am trying to enhance the orange colour of the cherry.
Any advice?
Otherwise the next thing I am going to try is some linseed oil and maybe some Scandinavian oil or Cabots danish oil? Will any of these be closer to what I want? I'm not sure how many different tins of this stuff I am willing to buy....

P.S. I haven't seen any ubeaut products anywhere in Canberra. Do you distribute here?

[Baz]

John G
Go see Graeme at Carba-tec, 6/145 Gladstone St Fyshwick, also see Suppliers list.
Cheers
Barry