Permit required?

[atregent]

Hi Guys,

I'm planning a bathroom reno, which I'm keen to get a start on, that involves removing a 1900mm section of wall. I've looked in the ceiling and it's non load bearing. Well, actually, that's not entirely true, there's a hanger resting on it, but the rafters it's hanging will be supported by the new wall I'll be building, and the hanger itself will be supported by another new wall. I wish I had a picture.

Question is this.

Do I need a permit for what I'm planning? I assumed that I would, so I rang and spoke to a draftsman to get some plans drawn up to get the ball rolling. After telling him what I had planned to do, he told me that I wouldn't need a permit so long as I didn't make any of the window openings bigger or change the structural nature of the external wall. I'm actully planning to get rid of the windows, since they face south into the neighbours trees, and install skylights.

I know it probably depends on the local regulations, but does that sound about right?

(ok, I decided that a picture would be a lot better)

[builtforcomfort]

I would say that you shouldn't really need a building permit based on the nature of the work but it would be wise to give a quick call to a local building surveyor just to double check.

[silentC]

My rule of thumb is that if it's inside the house it's none of their business!!

[thebuildingsurv]

Technically you would but as long as your not planning on selling soon probably wouldnt matter.

[atregent]

We're not planning on selling any time soon, but we are planning a bigger reno in a couple of years time (which would definately require a permit).

The nice thing is that the council don't have the original plans for the house (lost in a fire or something), all they have a plan (more like a sketch) of the standard reno for this style of house done quite a number of years ago, which only shows the back of the house.

Dilemma is this. I can go ahead and do my bathroom reno no problems and save a couple of thousand dollars and red tape, but, in a few years when we start on the major extension, will they question the work I'm doing now?

I did try talking to a guy at the council, but as soon as I started to say "demol..." he came back with "permit", which I'm thinking is just the default response.

[silentC]

Technically, as our mate the building inspector points out, you are supposed to get one for any development work not covered under what I think they call complying development - basically stuff that meets certain criteria so as not to require approval. Technically, this may also extend to things like new kitchens (I believe - I have never gone as far as verifying that).

Will they jack up about this reno when you go for the next one? Highly unlikely. If you appoint council as the PCA, then they will be interested in what you are doing now, not what you might have done elsewhere in the house.

One caveat though - with BASIX and other legislation now in force, you will probably be required to bring the rest of the house up to a certain level of compliance with regard to insulation, energy saving, smoke detectors etc etc and they will want to see evidence of that. So they will be poking around elsewhere.

However, my experience has been that they don't even walk into the existing parts of the house, let alone start querying you on whether your new bathroom was covered by a DA or not. They will want to see certificates for your smoke detectors and insulation as a requirement of your final occupancy certificate. Our guy had a bit of a look around but all he really wanted was the paperwork for his file.

Incidentally, we did some fairly major internal work on a house we sold recently and none of it was covered by a DA. Things like moving a wall, relocating a toilet, closing in a verandah. The council inspection at the time of sale did not raise any of it as non-complying development. The lack of adequate plans for the existing dwelling may have helped us there. Or the inspector didn't give a rats.

[atregent]

I'm planning on doing a lot for the energy rating (gonna try for 5 star), like insulating the walls and floor, solar hot water, double glazing, etc. So I don't think that will be an issue.

You mention certificates for the smoke detectors, which I assume I will get from the sparky who installs them, but who issues a certificate for the insulation? Especially since I'll be doing that myself.

[silentC]

We got a letter from the installer that just said something like "this is to certify that insulation batts of rating x and complying with Australian standard y have been installed in the walls and ceilings of the dwelling at z". It was cheaper to pay this guy to put it in than it was to buy the batts and do it ourself. Don't ask me how that works...

[bitingmidge]

It was cheaper to pay this guy to put it in than it was to buy the batts and do it ourself. Don't ask me how that works...

Same way my mechanic charges:

Normal hourly rate: $35.00 per hour
Work while you watch: $55.00 per hour
Repairs to work undertaken by you: $85.00 per hour

Cheers,

P

[ausdesign]

Under the Regulations, owners may be exempt from
having to obtain a building permit or occupancy
permit for minor building work. The exemptions
legitimise certain building work which the permit
process added little value or benefit.

Schedule 8

of the Regulations describes buildings,
structures and building work that do not require a
building or occupancy permit to be issued.

Alterations to a building if the building work;

- will not adversely affect the structural
soundness of the building and will not
increase or decrease the floor area or height
of the building, is not underpinning or
replacement of footings and does not
include the removal or alteration of any
element of the building that is contributing
to the support of any other element of the
building;

Replacement of an existing kitchen that does not
involve any structural work

Building permit not required providing it is not in
relation to a building included on the Heritage
Register, as there would generally not be any
adverse affect at any stage.

[silentC]

will not adversely affect the structural soundness of the building

I suppose that bit could be open to interpretation. Do you have to appoint an engineer to determine this? How do you prove it to council if they ever ask? Do you have to apply for an exemption, or is it assumed based on your own determination?

It's a bit like the fire building regs up here. You can do your own assessment and submit that with your DA but there's always the chance that the local fire officer or the RFS will disagree with your determination.

Good info to know.

[ausdesign]

It's a self assessment & my interpretation would be that if you are sure that it isn't structural then it would be up to the council to prove otherwise not for you to justify it.
These reg's apply in Vic. - i'm unsure of other state rulings.
This is only part of wording of the concessions - there are other proviso's such as safety of the structure for occupiers during works etc etc.

One of the main items we come across in relocating or removing walls is the wall bracing. Even though the wall may not be supporting roof members it may be a part of the required bracing units designed into the home. With more homes incorporating large open spaces, many designers are scratching for every bit of wall available to be able to include bracing units to meet reg's. - Braced walls are structural.
murpheys law dictates that the one you want to move or remove will have a brace in it!

[silentC]

If it's anything like my house, EVERY wall is braced! Bad luck for the guy who tries to renovate it in 50 years