building approval appeal?

[brucewil]

Hi everyone,

I have been a member of this forum for a while now, but have never had the need to ask a question yet. seems like the topic has always been discussed before. and the amount of knowledge here is such a great resource, even when the post disagree it is usefull to see both sides of the story and make up my own mind.

I am doing the old raising the house thing that is so popular in brisbane.
The original plan was to build in underneath, as well as add a deck and an extra bedroom on the back.

I submitted the plans to the private certifier, and got back a list of things I would need to do. Town planninng approval was needed as its a "demolition controlled precinct", I got the town planning approval done - no problem, everyones happy.

building over storm water approval was also needed as there is stormwater mains on my block. this is where the drama began.

The town planning report showed no flooding. yet council is now saying there is overland flow issues. so a hydrological report was done, as yes it shows that there would be water flowing over the site in a 50 year storm.

council came back with some proposed floor levels that just wouldnt work (we also have an 8.5m height limit) and of course we cant fill up to that level, as we will block the flowpath.

after months of trying to get any sort of solution from the certifier (seems he has to check with council if he want to scratch himself) I have given up and submitted amended plans that only show the upstairs renovation (nothing at all downstairs not even a slab, just battens around steel posts, and even the battens are only supposed to be on 3 sides).

now have had to get a new set of engineering done and about to give the results to the certifier which should be the final piece of info he needs, and I will have certified plans before the end of june.

sorry for the long rant. the question is:

what are the grounds for appealing a BA, do I find a certifier who is willing to work out the problems rather than just following council instructions. is there a formal appeals process. can I argue on other factors like my direct neighbour is doing exactly what I wanted to do (he has approval from a long time ago though)

cheers

[bitingmidge]

Bruce,

What is it they say on the radio, the following is general in nature and should not be construed as advice: Please note that I'm going from the bit of memory that my foggy brain provides and haven't looked up the BCA (Building Code of Australia) to get the actual bits.

what are the grounds for appealing a BA,

As far as I remember, all the grounds relate to interpretation of the BCA or its deemed to comply provisions. Unfortunately your issues are not related to the provisions of the BCA, but Local Authority bylaws and policies which don't come under the BCA provisions.

do I find a certifier who is willing to work out the problems rather than just following council instructions.

Certifiers are just that "certifiers". They certify that your application complies with the relevant laws. If it doesn't, and if they can't construe it to comply, they are not able to certify. Unfortunately they don't have magic wands that make errant Council policies go away.

is there a formal appeals process.

There is, and there is also a formal appeals process for the planning part of your application (which you went through for the demolition approval), however in issues like this unless the overland flow path limitations were notified as a condition of approval, you probably don't have any grounds to appeal, (or object).

There is no substitute for sitting down with the Council officer concerned (in this case an engineer, and good luck with finding them) and laying all your issues on the table. Stay calm, no matter how imbecilic the person seems, and put them in a position of wanting to solve your problem rather than having to defend themselves!

BCC has some apparently inconsistent engineering policies, but overland flow is a bit hard to toss!

can I argue on other factors like my direct neighbour is doing exactly what I wanted to do (he has approval from a long time ago though)

Yes, but be careful that what they have done hasn't actually made the overland flow worse and weakens your position.

You would be better to plot your existing house over the flow path, see what impact it has then argue that by filling in that bit you aren't impacting on the site at all.

After that you've only got the bit underneath where the new bedroom is to worry about, as I assume you won't be building under the deck.

Once you've got that far, look for an engineering solution, like diverting the flow path so it flows around your neighbours house, (and coincidentally yours as well), then you will have fixed Council's problem!

Dont' forget to let's know how you get on eh?

Cheers,

P

[jmk89]

.....
Stay calm, no matter how imbecilic the person seems, and put them in a position of wanting to solve your problem rather than having to defend themselves!
.......
You would be better to plot your existing house over the flow path, see what impact it has then argue that by filling in that bit you aren't impacting on the site at all.
........
Once you've got that far, look for an engineering solution, like diverting the flow path so it flows around your neighbours house, (and coincidentally yours as well), then you will have fixed Council's problem!

Dont' forget to let's know how you get on eh?

I'm no architect, only a corporate lawyer (hisses from all).

But the three parts of Midge's reply that I have extracted are, IMHO, the key to your problem. You can have all sorts of legal avenues of appeal, but the best thing is to come up with a solution along the lines that Midge suggests and to get the council guy on your side.

Cheers

Jeremy

[echnidna]

Yeah. legal battles are a real pain even when you're totally right.

[bitingmidge]

the best thing is to come up with a solution along the lines that Midge suggests and to get the council guy on your side.

Jeremy,
You won't get anyone to believe you are a lawyer with comments like that!! Are you sure they shouldn't object, counter sue and then appeal?

In all seriousness, I gave up the practise of architecture many years ago, because nonesensical situations like this one kept popping up, and it was far more lucrative (and much more fun) to get involved in solving them than in creating them!

Besides, it's a lot easier "managing" than actually "doing".
Cheers,

P

[Bin J]

I used to work in an architects office in Brisbane - I agree, get the Council officer on side . Also, not saying that your certifier is not good (in fact he sounds too good) - but I seem to remember there are some certifiers that are 'on the side of Council' and some that are 'on the side of the client' if you get what I mean. OR maybe if you could find a certifier that is chummy with Council .

Isn't this sad that you can't actually resolve the problem - only manipulate the people involved .

[thebuildingsurv]

In vic there are certain exemptions that apply to need approval to build in flood prone areas such as additions under 20m2. Why dont you check if there are exemptions as you may be able to do the upsatairs section first then the downstairs "as of right" in maybe 2 stages, talk to your certifier. I have seen appeals in vic allow building under the flood level providing all power points are kept 300mmm above the flood level. You probably dont have much to lose by appealing but it is a difficult one to argue, I suggest you calll the rooms underneath storage and work out ways to concince the powers to be that it wont interuppt the overland flow.

[echnidna]

Unless I have misread your post,
The house is already there.
But you want to elevate it,
Logic says if the floor level in the lower level of the altered house is the same as what it was before the house was raised, there can be no effect on floodpath.

[jmk89]

I am doing the old raising the house thing that is so popular in brisbane.
The original plan was to build in underneath, as well as add a deck and an extra bedroom on the back.

Bob

I think the clue is that the original floor is raised and then some new rooms are built underneath. So it could interfere with the flow of water across the block.

Cheers

Jeremy

[brucewil]

thanks for the feedback.

yeah, there is no way I want to get into a legal battle, that might leave no money to actually do the reno.

Having spoken at length to the council engineer, who was very helpful, but has strict rules to follow, so his hand are tied.

Ive read the part of the city plan that states the floor levels need to be 500mm above 50 year storm etc, and I suppose there would be water flowing accross the block, but there must be an exemption somehow, otherwise how to all these riverfront homes get built?

anyway it will definately have to wait for stage 2 if at all.

[bitingmidge]

Ive read the part of the city plan that states the floor levels need to be 500mm above 50 year storm etc, and I suppose there would be water flowing accross the block, but there must be an exemption somehow, otherwise how to all these riverfront homes get built?

You'll find that most of them are built above the Q100 flood height, ironically it's not illegal to build in a flood-prone area, although many shires now have land titles clearly marked with the anticipated flood level.

I think you'll find with an overland flood path they are not so interested in keeping you dry as they are insuring that your house doesn't dam the path, causing trouble further upstream.

Cheers,

P