Finishing Tassie Oak

[Arron]

Hi, I have some bedroom furniture in Tassie Oak which I would like to finish. I am a bit of a novice at finishing. I went to Bunnies and found they only sell two brands of stain - Wattyl and Cabots. I bought the Wattyl - 'traditional craftsmans stain' I think it was called. I tried it on some waste wood and it looked OK but my wife said she didnt like the way it overemphasised the grain. Looking at it more closely, almost all the colour was in the grain - the timber between the grain was hardly stained at all.

I tried the Cabots - put it on, leave for a few minutes, wipe off - but the problem is it almost all wipes off leaving the timber little changed and just a rather sallow, yellow colour. What else can I use - I want the timber to be a warm medium brown.

I have seen products called 'varnish stains'. Is this idea of including the stain with the varnish any good. Doesnt it lead to a streaky effect and unevenness, particularly where the varnish lies more thickly.

I went to a local furniture shop and they had lots of Tassie Oak furniture which was an ideal colour - but unfortunately wouldnt tell or didnt know how it was stained.

Any suggestions, is there some exotic product that I should be using ?

thanks
Arron

[Shane Watson]

Mate, its easy! But thats coming from someone who has stained and polished many many many cubes of tassi oak... haha

If you want an even finish and you have a spray setup its damn easy. Put the stain into your finish and coat evenly (tone) till the desired colour and shade is achieved. You can brush it on, but like you suggest you have to be even stroked and limit overlaps, coating like this really is best achieved by spraying. Even works good on MDF, you'd be amazed at some of the stuff in Hardly Normal thats just toned MDF.

You might get better more consitant results by using more commercial NGR stains as opposed to home handyman stuff from bunnies.

Water based stains are probably also an option, but will leave this for Neil to go into details here.

Anyway,

HTH

SHane.

[Arron]

Thanks for the quick reply Shane - but I'm still uncertain about exactly what you are saying. Are you saying that much of the commercial furniture is finished with the stain in the varnish - rather then by staining the wood first and then applying the varnish later?

If the answer is yes, then I can see how this would allow a wider range of colours and colour-densities, but I had always thought it was an absolute no-no for furniture - like it was just an absolute last-resort type finish.

What about the handyman oriented varnish stains - like the Wattyl stuff. Are they any good. If so, is there any reason to use an oil based one rather then a water based one.

cheers and thanks
Arron

[Mick4412]

This ( ie my ) post is deliberately polemic _ Doorstop - look that up in your Oxford.
I have completed a number of pieces of furniture ((( I am not talking about Wood Turning here - use Shellawax !!!))) in Tas Oak, & have stained & French Polished ( & sometimes waxed) them.
For staining, I mix my own pigments eg Burnt Climatis, Burnt Sienna, Black, yellow, with the shellac for staining, then sand between coats of Shellac. This will give "colours" such as Mahogany, Walnut, Teak etc . I expect the grain to show.
For Tas Oak in its natural colour, repeated applications of shellac will produce a great finish, but will emphasize the grain.
mick4412

[Shane Watson]

Yes I am talking commercial finishing. Lets face it if its commercial its dollar orientated. Why do two things when the two can be combined into one process. Saves time, saves money. It works, it may not be what you want, but if you want a consistant colour and shading its an option..

As for a no no...thats open to opinion, but its been a process that been used for many decades on furniture new and old one way or the other.

Personally I agree with Mick - emphasis the grain! Beautiful mate! Why try and hide what only nature can produce, thats how two identical pieces of timber furniture can never be identical, nature...Oh its gets the goose bumps going everytime..hahah..

Cheers

S

Oh and its not Varnish....Its lacquer, but thats a technicality...

[Shane Watson]

Mick, mate, what are you implying? My post polemic?

Main Entry: po·lem·ic
Pronunciation: p&-'le-mik
Function: noun
Etymology: French polémique, from Middle French, from polemique controversial, from Greek polemikos warlike, hostile, from polemos war; perhaps akin to Greek pelemizein to shake, Old English ealfelo baleful
Date: 1638
1 a : an aggressive attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another b : the art or practice of disputation or controversy -- usually used in plural but sing. or plural in constr.
2 : an aggressive controversialist : DISPUTANT

[Mick4412]

Sorry Shane,
Twas not trying to say you were "polemic" but my reply was meant to be "polemic" ((( also trying to stir Doorstop )))
The debate I was encouraging was using French Polishing Vs using Cabots etc,
Also to point out that emphasizing the natural timber grain was desirable
Regards
mick

[Arron]

Thanks Shane, I will give the varnish stain a go, somewhere I can sand it off if my brushwork is not up to standard.

By the way, what is the difference between varnish and laquer ?

Arron

[Shane Watson]

Haha..no worries Mick, I actually left out a coupla smily faces in my post, I knew what you meant haha...

Arron,

Difference between Varnish and Lacquer....

Hmmm, Neils probably better at this one than me...But probably being a little polemic - try this..

Varnish - bad, Lacquer - better.. Geez and they gave me awards for french polishing.... hahah.. Sorry but my minds not with it tonight...

Lacquer is a better finish if your going down that road, but that varnish stuff is more readily available to the home handyman via bunnies etc. To be honest I have never used Varnish and theres probably not much point getting into the chemical differences between the two in anycase.

Micks suggestion is a good one - shellac.....is the wonder drug of finishing..haha..

Cheers

SHane....

[ubeaut]

Arron - Mostly there is no varnish around anymore. Very simply put, varnish is basically an oil based finish that takes many hours to dry (up to 24 hrs), mostly what is called varnish today is polyurethane which is basically a plastic and dries much quicker (within a couple of hours), whilst lacquer (in very loose terms) is a spirit based product containing such things as celuloide, it dries much quicker again (as fast as a few minutes depending on conditions and method of application).

If you wish to preserve and enhanse the natural figure in the timber yet still impart a colour you might do well (as Shane suggests) to try using a water based dye. This can be anything from a common food dye to an analine water dye. You can also use the powder dyes sold in chemists and material shops for dying cloth. Dyelon is one brand available.

Mostly using the coloured varnish creates a pretty ordinary finish, and no it's not really all that easy to sand out if you get it wrong, especially if it is a polyurethane product.


Good luck with it.

Cheers - Neil

[Mick4412]

Aaron.
If you have never tried French Polishing, give it a try on some scrap timber.
Shellac Flakes - cost you about $11.00 for 300g at Bunnings
Methylated Spirits - about $10
Enough to French Polish your whole house
Make sure timber has been very well sanded - I dont apply even the first coat until I have used 200 grit
Sand lightly between coats - I use 1200 grit at this stage
It's worth the effort
mick

[Wood Borer]

Arron,

Why don't you purchase Neil's polishing handbook. It goes into depth about all these things and will give you ideas not previously imagined.

It is a worthwhile addition to any workshop library.


- Wood Borer

[dirtfinger]

Tassi Oak is so popular now and in my experience as a furniture restorer most of my clients like their tassi oak light and golden. No stain is required if shellac is used. Not too much either, but finished off with a dark wax which will fill the grain a bit after polishing. This will take out the glitz of the sellac too which will be reflecting light out from within the grain looking unsightly. Very easy and can be done very quickly. If staining is required for a more aged look I like vandike water crystles but wet piece and sand first to raise and cut back the grain. Simply applying any water stain will raise the grain so do this first. A light walnut spirit stain with a bit of green added to kill any red or an oak stain applied after a thin coat of shellac is a good tint too. But be careful and subsequent coats of shellac applied without skill will run the tint. Best results are gained by good preparation and finishing with shellac and then a dark wax.

[Arron]

Thanks for your response Dirtfinger. Your approach sounds ideal, pity I read it after making a start with Wattyl stains and varnishes. It was too late to change course midstream and now the result is pretty ordinary as you would expect.

Just one point, can you please explain what you meant by 'This will take out the glitz of the sellac too which will be reflecting light out from within the grain looking unsightly.'

thanks
Arron

[dirtfinger]

Tassi Oak has a very aggressive grain - like deep raveens that take forever to fill completely, so don't bother. So think of grain in this instance as a void space. French polishing is the use of shellac which ultimately fills the grain so you have a flat surface - the flatter the more even the reflection, the more water like etc. With such aggressive grain the aim is not to fill the 'raveens' completely but to seal with shellac, and then dull down the inside surface edges of the grain before waxing. A dark wax will sit inside the 'raveens' and help dull down the reflection which would otherwise give off an unsightly gliter. This happens because the surface is not flat. Sort of like a pitted surface, but long indentations or lower surfaces instead. These can sometimes be almost impossible to detect before the application of a finish in some timbers. Rubbing back a shellac finish with very fine steel wool prior to waxing will really help to dull the polish within the grain as well. Be careful to be even, not scratch the surface.

Just remember, when finishing decide to fill completely or not to fill much at all. If not filling completely (aggresive grain timbers and non surface polishing) then dull the inside of the grain. This will help make the surface look flatter than it is. Oh, one last thing, using a dark wax on Tassi oak will make the grain feature stand out as the dark 'brings out the grain', giving better contrast. Don't worry about darkening the overall piece as this will be marginal if correct sealing with shellac has been done. Seal several times, allowing to dry well enouth to be able to lightly sand or rub back with steel wool between 'coats'. Continuation of this process will eventually french polish the piece, so decide when to stop. Sooner is better than later with many timbers. I've found that in my professional experience that my customers don't actually like highly polished pieces much of the time. So shellac seal and wax away, and perheps try french polishing really snazzy, show off pieces only when absolutely necessary. Good luck next time - there's plenty of nice pieces out there!