Future of the Australian Electricity Market

[Chris Parks]

And the UK government have already started replacing natural gas with Hydrogen. I wonder if that idea will become the second diesel fiasco in a few years.

[woodPixel]

These two things on Wikipedia go some way to understanding the solutions:

NOx - Wikipedia
Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia

This one also points out pretty much the same methods:
Selective non-catalytic reduction - Wikipedia

[woodPixel]

Fast-Charging EV Batteries With Nickel Foil - IEEE Spectrum

Fast-Charging EV Batteries With Nickel Foil

New tech enables standard EV batteries to charge to 70 percent capacity in 11 minutes

.....

For instance, a conventional long-range EV with a 120-kilowatt-hour pack that requires an hour to recharge could be replaced with an EV with a 60-kWh pack capable of 10-minute fast charging while preserving a very similar travel time during long-distance trips.

This makes for an interesting ponderance!

[havabeer69]

Fast-Charging EV Batteries With Nickel Foil - IEEE Spectrum



This makes for an interesting ponderance!

why do the always leave out the actual electrical specs required to do that level charging though? I mean do they need 6 or 60kw of power to do the 10 min charge? I think people are ok with elec vehicals now, whats going to hold them back is the infrastructure trying to get the power to them.

[woodPixel]

why do the always leave out the actual electrical specs required to do that level charging though? I mean do they need 6 or 60kw of power to do the 10 min charge? I think people are ok with elec vehicles now, whats going to hold them back is the infrastructure trying to get the power to them.

There is a sneaky link right at the bottom

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05281-0

and the full 16 page PDF.

If you have trouble with their paywalls etc, use "Bypass Paywalls Clean"


(Support: https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clean
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[Chris Parks]

An article on the hype surrounding Hydrogen in transport

What’s more efficient? Hydrogen or battery powered? (volkswagenag.com)

>With the hydrogen-powered electric car, the losses are significantly greater: 45 percent of the energy is already lost during the production of hydrogen through electrolysis. Of this remaining 55 percent of the original energy, another 55 percent is lost when hydrogen is converted into electricity in the vehicle. This means that the hydrogen-powered electric car only achieves an efficiency of between 25 to 35 percent, depending on the model. For the sake of completeness: when alternative fuels are burned, the efficiency is even worse: only 10 to 20 percent overall efficiency.<

[GraemeCook]

why do the always leave out the actual electrical specs required to do that level charging though? I mean do they need 6 or 60kw of power to do the 10 min charge? I think people are ok with elec vehicals now, whats going to hold them back is the infrastructure trying to get the power to them.

Does it matter? Or why are people obsessed with fast charging?

Most people will come home, plug their electrical vehicle in and will want it charged before they drive away the next morning, 10-12 hours later. When away from home, they may need a fast charge and then they will go to a commercial charger.

[Bushmiller]

Does it matter? Or why are people obsessed with fast charging?

Most people will come home, plug their electrical vehicle in and will want it charged before they drive away the next morning, 10-12 hours later. When away from home, they may need a fast charge and then they will go to a commercial charger.

Graeme

It is difficult to say exactly how charging patterns will pan out. It may be given that a large part of renewable power will be solar so that where possible motorists will try to take advantage of off-peak, which will now be through the middle of the day. If retired there will be no problem as you will plug in at a time to suit, but if at work (and not working from home), charging your vehicle at the best price and competing for a charging spot with all your work colleagues may be more problematic.

I expect it will get sorted.....eventually.

Regards
Paul

[GraemeCook]

Probably right, Paul.

But in the short to medium term, there will probably be "excess thermal power" continuing to be available in the midnight to 6.00 am slot. Those stations do not ramp up and ramp down as quickly as demand!

[FenceFurniture]

Does it matter? Or why are people obsessed with fast charging?

Most people will come home, plug their electrical vehicle in and will want it charged before they drive away the next morning, 10-12 hours later. When away from home, they may need a fast charge and then they will go to a commercial charger.

It's not so much the fast charging, but the access to ANY power for many people, such as high-rise dwellers where there is no power available in the community garage (or there is no garage), or people who have to park on the street in the inner city (even here, as we do). People having to run stupidly long cables down the outside of buildings so they can charge their vehicles. Fast charge (at a servo or similar) for such people becomes paramount, but it will also wear out the battery faster - lithium batteries like slow charging mostly, but that may change I guess. I only use a USB-C charger on my phone if I need fast juice and don't have the time for a trickle.

Edited for clarity.

[GraemeCook]

... People having to run stupidly long cables down the outside of buildings so they can charge their vehicles. Fast charge for such people becomes paramount, ...

Sorry, but you have lost me FF.

Cannot see how you can connect a fast charger to a "stupidly long" extension lead - surely it is limited to 10 amps, perhaps 15 amps in some cases.

Appreciate that people without a car park with a powerpoint do have a problem; they will have to rely on commercial charging stations, like servos.

But would any rational person buy an electrical car if they did not have somewhere to park it? Trying to think of something clever to say about smart chargers and less smart owners!

[FenceFurniture]

Sorry, but you have lost me FF.

Cannot see how you can connect a fast charger to a "stupidly long" extension lead - surely it is limited to 10 amps, perhaps 15 amps in some cases.

I'm not connecting them Graeme, I'm saying forget about fast charging, ANY charging is a problem for some people.

It's not so much the fast charging, but the access to ANY power for many people,

and that therefore:

Fast charge for such people becomes paramount,

in a fast charging station somewhere.


Original post slightly edited for clarity.

[woodPixel]

I think everyone is forgetting some really important aspects of how anything is implemented in life.

The infrastructure for anything new isn't available 100% as of Day One.

When cars were first created, one bought their fuel in tin cans that were opened with (what looked like) a can-punch. It was a big deal. There were no "service stations", nor anyone to change the oil.... it ALL had to be arranged. Fuel was order in. In a way it was cute, but terribly inconvenient.

Same with internet. Who here DIDN'T struggle with a 28.8k (or 14.4k) modem and cursed Telstra and their copper pair lines?

A town is created, it didn't just pop out of the earth like a game of Command+Conquer or SIM City.... it was dirt roads and dirt footpaths and no water (but your own tank) and a hole out the back for the Outhouse....

The same will go for this infrastructure.

Ive no doubt the network will be built at a speed that we will boggle at in 5 or 10 years time. We'll look back and see that all the "Yeah But..." arguments were just negative naysayers. Have a little vision!

If there is doubt, I look at China, which I sort of love (not the goddam CCP though). Over there the city electric infrastructure is positively space-aged compared to here. Electrification is EVERYTHING.... electric "city cars" sell like CRAZY... electric scooters are 100% of sales and they can't make them fast enough. If people need to go a long way, they catch a high-speed train that goes at 360km/h.

We are positively prehistoric with our namby-pamby rear-view politics. The last government has positively squandered the opportunity to be "the lucky country". So many HUGE opportunities lost.

People will work around all this arm-waving I'm reading here. Its not the end of the world. The early adopters will take the pain, as they always do, find wild solutions with improbable hacks, and in the end it all catches up for "The Ordinaries".

I suspect, however, that the rapid changes we are seeing in the environment are going to galvanise us as a species to change how we do EVERYTHING and the capitalists will either capitalise on it (or hide in a hole) or the government will simply do it and charge appropriately (as it bloody well should).


(edited slightly for clarity and spuling erras)

[BobL]

I think everyone is forgetting some really important aspects of how anything is implemented in life.

The infrastructure for anything new isn't available 100% as of Day One.

When cars were first created, one bought their fuel in tin cans that were opened with (what looked like) a can-punch. It was a big deal. There were no "service stations", nor anyone to change the oil.... it ALL had to be arranged. Fuel was order in. In a way it was cute, but terribly inconvenient.

There was even a time before cans when petrol was only available from pharmacist in 500mL glass bottles. Each pharmacist would only stock a few bottles so drivers would have to do a crawl around to all the pharmacies in a town to fill up

[havabeer69]

I think everyone is forgetting some really important aspects of how anything is implemented in life.

The infrastructure for anything new isn't available 100% as of Day One.

When cars were first created, one bought their fuel in tin cans that were opened with (what looked like) a can-punch. It was a big deal. There were no "service stations", nor anyone to change the oil.... it ALL had to be arranged. Fuel was order in. In a way it was cute, but terribly inconvenient.

Same with internet. Who here DIDN'T struggle with a 28.8k (or 14.4k) modem and cursed Telstra and their copper pair lines?

A town is created, it didn't just pop out of the earth like a game of Command+Conquer or SIM City.... it was dirt roads and dirt footpaths and no water (but your own tank) and a hole out the back for the Outhouse....

The same will go for this infrastructure.

Ive no doubt the network will be built at a speed that we will boggle at in 5 or 10 years time. We'll look back and see that all the "Yeah But..." arguments were just negative naysayers. Have a little vision!

If there is doubt, I look at China, which I sort of love (not the goddam CCP though). Over there the city electric infrastructure is positively space-aged compared to here. Electrification is EVERYTHING.... electric "city cars" sell like CRAZY... electric scooters are 100% of sales and they can't make them fast enough. If people need to go a long way, they catch a high-speed train that goes at 360km/h.

We are positively prehistoric with our namby-pamby rear-view politics. The last government has positively squandered the opportunity to be "the lucky country". So many HUGE opportunities lost.

People will work around all this arm-waving I'm reading here. Its not the end of the world. The early adopters will take the pain, as they always do, find wild solutions with improbable hacks, and in the end it all catches up for "The Ordinaries".

I suspect, however, that the rapid changes we are seeing in the environment are going to galvanise us as a species to change how we do EVERYTHING and the capitalists will either capitalise on it (or hide in a hole) or the government will simply do it and charge appropriately (as it bloody well should).


(edited slightly for clarity and spuling erras)

Thats fine until the government says that by 2032 no more combustion engines will be sold in the act, i hope in less then 10 years the state (sorry territory) has worked out all the kinks of owning elec vehicles to promote the start of 100% uptake