French polishing questions

[ubeaut]

I've never tried colouring shellac, SD, I think that's another question for Neil to address...

I presume you want the colour in the finish rather than in the wood (otherwise you'd just pre-stain the wood)? The old bloke who I worked with a bit used to use button lac to give things an 'old' look. It's a bit more faffing about than using fresh orange flakes, takes longer to dissolve & is full of extraneous stuff so has to be strained before you can use it. Personally, I don't like the finish it gives, it looks a bit "muddy" to me, but obviously there are those as does like it...

Cheers,

I have used a lot of coloured shellac for decorative finishes the coloured shellac is made by adding universal tint to the shellac. Universal tint is the stuff they use in paint shops to tint paint with. It comes in a myriad of colours and if you go to Bunnies and ask for a sample or two they will usually give you some in a small container.

Below 3 decorative finishes using universal tinted shellac over a PVA gesso mix.
stippled - Centre: Brush Roll - Right: cling wrap.
stipple.jpg brush.jpg cling.jpg

However universal tint isn't really ideal for doing what you want, which is basically colour matching and is an art in itself and not something to try without a lot of practise even the big finishing establishments of long ago had colour matchers that were basically the guru's and hid their matching methods/formulae from the polishers.

Much safer and easier in the long run for novice polishers to stain the wood rather than colour the shellac. In many instances antiques were (when they were new, or a future antique) were died with chemical dyes and mordants. Mahogany and oak being two that were most often chemically dyed. A mix of potassium bichromate (carcinogenic) and hot water (don't inhale the fumes) washed over mahogany gave the timber the deep rick colour associated with Empire furniture. Same mix over Oak gave a deep rich brown.

Worked brilliantly with all tannin rich woods. Can even be done on woods that are almost devoid of tannin like pine. Soak a heap of teabags in boiling water and let them steep until cold then chuck 'em in the bin. Wipe the cold tea over the wood allow to dry then apply the potassium bichromate and hey presto you've got walnut well pine that sorta looks the goods.
dyebowls.gif
Above 2 bowls dyed with water dye and finished with Shellawax friction polish
Left Eucalyptus Right Birdseye Maple

Water Dyes are great under shellac, and my 1st preference mainly because they let the grain be the star. (More water dye selections at bottom of post)
Black japan watered down works well also but it can also be a handful if you're not really sure what you're doing. I used to get some of the tar, used for patching roads from the back of the council truck and add turpentine to get the thickness and colour I was after. Great for light golden walnut colour through to almost black.

Anyway, before you stain any antique... If it's marked up but the surface is in reasonably good nick. Not crazed or flaking off, etc I would try Polish Reviver which can get rid of old build-ups of wax, oil, Mr Sheen, Marveer and almost any other thing ever used on it and restore the piece to almost the original finish. Along the way it will get rid of damage from Alcohol, water, heat, smoke from open fires and the same from cigarettes, etc. It's not a miracle but pretty close.

If the old finish is in really bad repair don't muck around scraping or sanding get some paint stripper and remove the finish from the piece. Once you're done with the stripping etc then give the surface a wipe over with metho and you might be surprised at the colour and not want or need to add any colour to the piece at all. Maybe it could need some orange shellac rather than white (bleached) after all that's possibly what it was originally finished with when it was born.

Water Dyes: Our water dyes are mainly for small use like and with the intention of being used under our friction polishes. They are only sold in small 50ml batches and can be used to match some timber colours. Biggest things I know of, being died with ours are a number of guitars with sunburst patterns.

However, larger areas can be water dyed using other water dyes. All fabric dyes are fine for use under shellac have a look on line and you should find a number of different ones.

Go to Spotlight or similar where they have hobby stuff and have a look at their Dylon Fabric Dyes or RIT fabric dye or Rit Dye More Synthetic These dyes are basically for dying fabric but they work a treat on wood, are on the whole cheaper than ours are in bigger bottles and are more light resistant especially the Rit dye more synthetic.

Do a Google search for wood dye colours and you'll come up with heaps of them, both liquid and powdered to mix your own.

The last word(s): You can also use stains under shellac but be wary of what you use. Ideally you should use water or turpentine based stains because the shellac isn't compatible with then and will not pull them off the surface. Alcohol stains on the other hand can, on many woods be pulled of almost completely into the rubber because of the alcohol in the shellac.

Water and turps based stains can be watered down to give a translucent coat rather than look like paint which it sorta is... almost. This will let the grain show through rather than being blanketed beneath the stain. Won't be the star like water dye will make it but will be better than full strength stain.

Hope this has been of some information or interest. If you were interested but fell asleep during the reading of this tome, try to remember where you left off and start from there.

Apologies for any blatant adverts something may have slipped in whilst I was typing.
It was probably accidental.

Cheers - Neil

[surfdabbler]

Neil, you are a veritable encyclopedia of helpful information. I will aim to absorb as much of this info as I can. Thank you!

[jack620]

You can also use stains under shellac but be wary of what you use. Ideally you should use water or turpentine based stains because the shellac isn't compatible with then and will not pull them off the surface. Alcohol stains on the other hand can, on many woods be pulled of almost completely into the rubber because of the alcohol in the shellac.

I've had success with these under shellac: Feast Watson 50ml Cedar Prooftint Interior Stain - Bunnings Australia

I have a good selection of them. The colours are very strong. I recommend thining, as Neil suggests, with the FW reducer. I wouldn't use the cedar colour on its own. It's bright red and nothing like cedar! Good for adding a red tint to other stains though. The golden teak is very yellow which also makes it good for adjusting other stains.

[ubeaut]

WARNING - Funny, but sad and shocking info.

We have a Cedar colour in our dyes and it is almost impossible to tell it from real cedar even on pine.

Some thirty years ago in one of my weekend restoration classes a woman had a chiffonier with a massive split down one side. I got her to fill it with a piece of cedar I had. She cut it to the shape but had trouble fitting it in so got to it with a spokeshave until it fitted reasonably well in the cavernous crack.

Because of the somewhat dicky spoke shave work there were still a few gaps that needed to be filled, so we made a gesso with hide glue and talc and mixed in some cedar stain until it matched the real wood colour. The filling was done it dried perfectly and was sanded down ready to start polishing the next morning. It looked that good that it was impossible to tell the gesso filler from the real wood.

Well unbeknown to me our cedar water dye was allergic to the hide glue and had a rather weird reaction. When we arrived the next morning the beautifully filled, matching cedar, gesso, had over-night turned an eye-popping, vivid lime green colour.

All we could do was to get a carving knife and cut some of the top section of the fill out and refill it with another filler which we eventually stained again with the cedar and it matched in but wasn't quite as nice looking as it was the night before.

That was some good strong gesso too, took a couple of hours and a few sharpens of the knife to clean it all up.

We live and learn, eh.

Cheers - Neil

PS Never used Feast Watsons Proof Tint but have heard good things about it.

[surfdabbler]

I'm certainly getting better results than before, but still not getting a glass smooth finish. It almost looks like it should be glass smooth, but there is something on the surface that's leaving smear marks that dry on the finish while I'm working. It never looks glossy while I'm working.

But overall, getting very smooth. Here's a photo...
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Anyway, I'm just going to get a good polish for finishing. Is it better to use tripoli powder or EEE shine as a final finish? I'm not a big fan of wax as a final finish, because it doesn't feel smooth, so I'm thinking maybe tripoli powder mixed with oil. Any thoughts or other recommendations?

[IanW]

Smear marks in the sort of weather we're experiencing atm could be "blooming" due to humidity. If that's the case, they should disappear, or largely disappear after a while (possibly a few hours when humidity is as high as it's been lately). If the smears persist, then I'd be thinking oil (can't remember if you said you are using a dab of oil on your rubber, but that's the most common source). You get rid of that in the "spiriting off" step. Again, I can't remember if that's been covered already, but briefly, you let the shellac harden up for 3 or 4 days after the last "coat", then make up a fresh rubber. Just barely damp the wadding with meths (the rubber should definitely not feel wet). Then rub away as if still building polish - you should be able to rub the same piece almost indefinitely, because there is so little alcohol in the rubber it only takes molecules off the surface & shouldn't grab. It's an exceedingly slow process, but f you are persistent enough, you will end up with a perfect high-gloss surface (& an aching elbow if it's a large piece!). Any oil that was smeared on the surface will be picked up quite quickly in the rubber & is usually no further bother, but if there's a lot of oil you may need to make a fresh clean rubber after you get the bulk off.

If the smears are due to neither of those causes, then I've run out of suggestions....
Cheers,



Cheers,

[auscab]

, but there is something on the surface that's leaving smear marks that dry on the finish while I'm working. It never looks glossy while I'm working.

If its fine lines your seeing, like I can see in the bottom picture. Lines that follow the rubber direction.

Fine lines left in the shine when finishing off are usually because the shellac is to thick. Get the mix your using and try diluting it down in another tub. 20% what you have been using and 80% the rest metho. Its pretty incredible how thin it ends up being . Its still working though . I get an idea of its strength and if its enough shellac in the mix by passing the rubber over the back of my left hand and then putting it to my lips as it dries off. Even when very thin I can feel the tackiness of the shellac drying by touching my lips to it, moving them left to right. Or You can see the shine left when its dried off.

[ubeaut]

Perfect call Robert. I reckon you hit the nail right on the head.

[surfdabbler]

Hi Robert, Yes, I know the lines you are talking about from too much shellac, and I certainly had this issue when I was building up the early layers, and yes, there are some of these lines visible on the bottom drawer in the photo. But after cutting back on the shellac, and even doing several sessions with almost no shellac, just IMS, the surface is pretty smooth, but these other lines are still there. I feel like they are coming from the oil, so I'll give it a couple of days to harden up and then spirit off and polish.

Any recommendations for which polish to use? Tripoli powder vs EEE? I tried Scratch-X, which is a car polish, and it sometimes gave good results, but did seem to react with the shellac. I put a blob on the surface for a few minutes, and wiped it off, and it did leave a mark. It might be OK after the shellac has had a few days to toughen up.

[auscab]

Any recommendations for which polish to use? Tripoli powder vs EEE? I tried Scratch-X, which is a car polish, and it sometimes gave good results, but did seem to react with the shellac. I put a blob on the surface for a few minutes, and wiped it off, and it did leave a mark. It might be OK after the shellac has had a few days to toughen up.

I cant recommend those ways . If you are happy with then then go for it. I just finish off with a rubber and a metho shellac mix taking off the oil. Sometimes I dull with Liberon 0000 wool and wax .

[ubeaut]

Tripoli Powder should give a really fine cut and a way better look to the finish but if you already have obvious lines it won't necessarily delete them. Same for steel wool unless you know what your doing with both. I would avoid Scratch-X most stuff made for cars is made for automotive finishes, not for wood finish.

EEE will be the same as the Tripoli Powder but with a higher gloss due to the waxes.

You need to eradicate the lines before doing anything else.

For what it's worth I've seen a lot of restored antiques with that same marking as what you have and in most instances it comes from shoddy or lazy polishing. The last few steps are very important in getting that brilliant finish you want. Using a cut and polish can help but only as a very last resort.

Worst comes to worst, use some 1500 grit wet and dry on a cork block with water that has a reop of dish detergent in it as a wetting agent. Sand very carefully with the wet n dry and water. This will stop the abrasive from clogging and if done right will get rid of the lines without cutting the finish back too far on the surface of the work. Don't go crazy with it, stop and check the progress regularly by wiping down and allowing the surface to dry.

It could take anywhere from a couple of wipes over the surface with the abrasive to a minute or so, but go easy. You're not sanding just levelling.

You could then use a cut and polish like EEE-Ultra Shine over the top for a higher gloss or Tripoli Powder for a higher slightly dryer shine.

[woodPixel]

Quick question on mouse/rubbers and the material.

Obtaining genuine flax-based linen is a tricky proposition.

When questioned closely, every retailer I've found that calls their product "Linen" isn't real linen at all, mostly coarse cotton thread deliberately lubberly made.... inclusions and thread vagaries being quite intentional. (i.e. fake).

This product by Zweigart is genuine linen.

Is it too coarse?

WHITE BELFAST LINEN - 32cnt - Zweigart brand - (P3609-100/78)(1447) | eBay

[Swifty]

Quick question on mouse/rubbers and the material.


Is it too coarse?

I would say so, looks way to open - 32 count!

I bought some old bed linen at a pop up near my supermarket, I have had no problems with it.

[IanW]

Yes, it looks a bit coarse to me too. It may work, but really, it's not all that desperately important to have genuine linen to wrap your wadding in. Cotton works very well, & even most cotton you get may have a small proportion of synthetic unless it claims to be "pure" cotton. They all work, the finer the weave, the better the surface it will leave. Cotton won't last as long as linen, perhaps, but it depends entirely on the quality of the product. If it's old well-washed cloth, which is what I favour, & it hasn't started to deteriorate, it will last quite a while as a wrapper. I double my cloth & turn it inside out as soon as it shows signs of wear. I might go through a couple of bits of cloth during a very busy day, but mostly a rubber lasts for an entire small job.....

If you are teaching yourself to FP, I predict your biggest problem will be getting the dilution of the polish just right. For a beginner, I reckon it's best to start with a much more dilute solution than is usually recommended in books, etc. Books are written by people who have lots of experience, & with experience, you can handle a less dilute cut, & you recognise instantly if the polish is too thick for the job. OK, so the more dilute, the more rub-overs it takes to get a build, but as with any finish I know, many fine coats are better than fewer & thicker coats. One of the reasons I don't do a lot more FP is because a really perfect job takes LOTS of patience & patience isn't my long suit when it comes to finishing - I just want to get that part out of the way & get onto something more interesting. But if you DO have patience & put the effort into it, there's no other finish I know that you can do with no fancy gear & get as good a result.

Cheers,

[woodPixel]

I've a new small box that I was thinking of FP.

I was going to use a few piece of prepped timber to practice. The 100% IMS (from above) worked a treat on the flakes. They dissolved within an hour. Fluid is much darker than I expected.

IanW, agree with the time-invested thing, but I've perfected all the other finishes and this is my last wild horse! Its also something that is easily done in my workshop (ahem, tiny balcony!).


With straining, would a coffee filter be suitable? I also have paint strainers I used to use for spaying car paints, or will they be too fine? (190 microns - pictured).

There is also this "Cheesecloth".... suitable for mouses? Amazon.com.au : cheesecloth fabric

I ask as Ive no white tshirts, either old or new. Perhaps I'll get some cheap pillowcases from Woolworths


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