Restoring a Wooton desk - shellac and stains

[surfdabbler]

My daughter has bought a Wooton desk, and now it's my job to restore it. I'd like to go quite traditional in the restoration. The plan is to strip back to wood, and french polish it. I've used shellac once or twice before, but never a project this size. Some of the wood is quite light underneath the finish, and I'd like to stain some of the wood dark again, but haven't worked stain with shellac before. I'd also like to keep some of the larger areas the darker colour. I've seen restorations where the finish is redone without stain, and I don't like the lighter orange colour. Darker will also be more true to the Victorian origins of the piece. It's walnut, and some of the wood is much lighter under the finish. The burl inlay areas I'll keep as light as possible to bring out the grain, and the background surrounding wood I'd like to keep darker.

So, what type of stains will work well with the shellac? Can I use alcohol stains with shellac? I'm thinking to seal the whole piece with shellac, then stain the parts I want darker, then do lots more shellac over the top. I've also read of some people staining the shellac, then building the darker colour as the shellac builds up. Any thoughts on what stain or which method might be better?

[auscab]

If what you have and what its worth is worth considering for a minute.

Then.

If that's complete and not missing major pieces, and the finish can be revived. Its a thing that's worth serious money apparently . Seeing High ticket prices is one thing, its seeing things and what they actually bring is what matters. Just going to Google and seeing the prices just means I don't believe it until Ive seen a few actually sell. A simple search just shows what people want for such things . That is a Rare piece here in AU though . Ive never seen one or noticed one in 43 years of restoring and going to Melbourne auction rooms . There must have been some and I just didn't see them maybe ?

If you strip it and do a good job of restoration , Good job meaning re do it to a as good as or better than how it looked new and keep it looking like an antique. Not All new and glossy and over done . Then its still considered by most dealers who know how to keep value in a piece as Rooted. And they couldn't sell it to a collector who is into that sort of thing.

If its carefully revived, if possible, it'll not only look very good . Its value will increase and continue to do so. It will take you a LOT less time to do as well.

And if you don't know much about staining and finishing with shellac. And how to finish the finish and get the right shine, and get it to the level it should be done at. Then learning off a forum is a real long shot I think.

I just want to point out the facts and not sound to over the top .

Its your daughters to do what ever she likes with of course .

Most of the US stuff Ive seen from around this time isn't french polished in a traditional way . Like the best quality way you see Original UK stuff done from 1820 to 1880 roughly. Its more of a either a mix of FP and spirit varnish or all Spirit Varnish or something different that that . And they crackle and split and go a bit off. Your one looks a bit that way in some spots maybe. It does look pretty good in others.

If a FP job was done right on it it would be considered a better quality of polishing job than what I think was done on them originally. That doesn't mean its not devalued though .

If it is all crackled up and crazed as usual its not real easy to revive it well sometimes. That's the problem with the stuff. It comes down to how much shellac was in the original mix . If that is what the original mix was.

It would be interesting to see better pictures capturing the finish that is there now before its touched. And some close ups of the different colours on it.

If you do go down the path of striping then stains are available but no one can suggest a few cans of what ever and that will be right . You need a spread of quite a few types and you mix to get accurate colours . And you need to know how much shellac is going on later and of what type to not throw the colour off if you want good accuracy . That can sometimes be more a problem of matching new bits to old sections .


You said.
"So, what type of stains will work well with the shellac? Can I use alcohol stains with shellac? I'm thinking to seal the whole piece with shellac, then stain the parts I want darker, then do lots more shellac over the top. I've also read of some people staining the shellac, then building the darker colour as the shellac builds up. Any thoughts on what stain or which method might be better?"


All stains work well with shellac. Some have to be used under it like water or oil stains . Spirit or alcohol, stains can be mixed with it.
Sealing with shellac then staining over? No . Not without the right reason ??

Yes coloring the shellac is done when its needed but its not as long a lasting method . Sunlight kills it faster than staining the wood first then sealing that in . Its more a fine tuning option.

Yeah plenty of thoughts here on what is a better stain or method . Better pictures of whats there already on that piece and someone might be able to tell you that.

I'm going to bed.

Rob

[surfdabbler]

Thanks so much for your reply. It's not really what I wanted to hear, but that's how it goes, and I certainly appreciate your experience and advice.

Yes, some of the finish is still in good condition, and I will keep some of it, and do what I can to bring it back. I've already taken the finish off some of the drawers, and I'll stick to refinishing those parts for now while I consider what to do after that. The finish that was on there was really dark, and really hiding the beauty of the wood, particularly the burl areas. I'll get some more photos this evening.

[surfdabbler]

Here's some more photos of the finish. It's actually hard to photograph, because my phone likes to make things look better than they are, enhancing the red colour, and picking out grain patterns that are difficult to see in person. In real life, it's a bit darker than this. In a lot of areas, I can probably work with the existing finish, as it's not terrible. Wiping with metho and a fad does bring the finish up with a bit more shine, but it doesn't do much for the awful dark colour finish that is hiding the beautiful wood and designs. I have tried cleaning a patch with water+detergent, and the finish comes right off before it gets any lighter, so I don't think I can just clean the finish to get it lighter.

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[auscab]

Amazing piece!
Typical crusty crackled up finish though . The top looks like the cylinder roll has a nice shine on it but the lower parts are not so good .
They may have polished the top with a higher grade of mix ?

When its reasonable like on the cylinder . A fine rub back using a linseed oil and turps mix 25 /75 with a worn 400 grit paper smooths it off and prepares
it for a thin amount of shellac applied with a rubber. You give it a bit of a build maybe twice for a few minutes each then apply a little linseed oil to a drop every 6 inches and rub that all over . That brings the shine up .

Here's a bit of rubbed back Walnut . A new piece I did . Getting that sort of shine. Its not left that way . Usually waxed later .

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The problem with spirit varnish though is when you start re shining the stuff the varnish reacts and starts crackling up again as you polish. Depends on how good the quality of the original mix is. How much shellac is in it is my understanding.
No one ever wrote a recipe of how this was done that I have seen . Old polishers , Nearly all passed now, know about such things but they never would let go of a secret like that unless you worked next to them for 5 to 10 years. Even then you'd have to wait for a Christmas end of year get together and buy them a few beers probably .

The crackly stuff on the rest of it though . You cant cut it back smooth .

I would either leave it and wash it a bit then give a bit of a this shellac then wax. It will male it a little better. That's what may be done if it was going in a display somewhere with the National trust. Or they may just sponge it clean and leave it.


But if you want a cleaner restored look then a strip and re polish is whats needed.

Not deep sanded once stripped though.
It may lighten up just be washing it off. And working with the original stain that remains or adding some on top can still get it looking nice. Re polished but still retain the antique look if polished well and finished off right .

Its the deep sanding that really creates an over restored look . If you wash it off clean a few times and finish with metho and fine steel wool like 0000 then buff dry with a clean rag it'll be lovely. And probably be ready for a re shine

If the washing it off was the look a client of mine wanted.
Id wash it off, not sand it deep, Just a very light sand with oil and turps and the worn out 400 . Get any colours right that may need adjusting . Like the dark bits . Give three brush coats of shellac . A mix of the U beaut sold here and some flake shellac . Or a blonde and flake mix same thing I think ?
flake is to orange by itself and blonde is too blonde , I like a mix . Stuff this colour looks great with some orange in the shellac. It enhances it.

Its all got to be thinned right as well . Not as it comes .

Then its got to be rubbed flat and smooth with the 400 and bodied up with a rubber , then cut back and finished of the right french polishing way . fine cut backs and thinner shellac . Then a few final shines like the video I put in above .

Before the final shines start I would add the crusty darkness dirt look back into the corners all over it . It can be done so its not noticeable as a dirty add on but a nice antique finish, if done right, and is part of doing a light re patination that makes a big difference. Ill let you figure out if you want to do that and how to do it. To big a secret to put online

Then the final shines happen and its finished with a wax finish.

The Brass is cleaned and polished . I don't like to buff the life out of it and get it all new either . Your choice.

They sell a polishing handbook here . Get that and study it . I haven't read it but every one seems to rave about it .

A POLISHERS HANDBOOK – U-Beaut Polishes


Rob

[Camelot]

When working with Shellac regardless of the age of the piece the newly applied Shellac will soften the old thus making a good bond, Shellac is built up in layers to achieve the desired finish. You can buy ready made up Button polish or make your own, regarding staining this should be done prior to adding polish and all old polish should be removed before applying, the stain will raise the grain and will require flattening using alcohol based stain will be better than water based because the grain raising will be less and the alcohol based stain should penetrate the wood better.

Looking at the piece there is a lot of work to do, to bring it back to a nice finish

[auscab]

the stain will raise the grain and will require flattening using alcohol based stain will be better than water based because the grain raising will be less

I like wet sanding the wood before using a water based stain, or any other water based treatment like bleaching . It's done to prevent the raised grain problem . Sometimes with bleaching I do it after. For staining its got to be done first. It can be a disaster if you forget to do it . Back to square one and start again sometimes.
The worst thing is getting a few coats of clear into a job and you give it a hard cut back as usual and you cut through the stain that's sitting on top of the raised bits . You get thousands of light specks in what should be dark finish.

[surfdabbler]

Thanks for all the thoughts and assistance. I'll plan to post some update pics, but it's a long-term project, on weekends between other projects and the rest of life. It could take me a year, but that's OK.

I haven't decided yet whether I will use any stain on the main body of the piece. I want to wait and see what colour the wood comes out when cleaned. It's American Walnut. I don't believe it was originally stained, and the shellac might bring out a nice natural wood colour, which I believe is always better than stain. There will be some staining on the detailed design, as the black and red colouring just wash off with the rest of the finish, but that's only on the details.

[ubeaut]

If you haven't jumped in boots and all yet might I suggest trying to clean the surface with our Polish Reviver. It may do nothing but I'd be willing to bet it will almost restore it to the original finish. Much of the black may well be smoke that has layered on the piece over the years, from open fires. Polish reviver will remove old layers of wax that may well be holding the smoke in place and washing down with metho or water with detergent won't do too much to remove it.

I would just about bet the first wipe over with the reviver will present you with a black face on the cloth which will be the smoke, dirt and dust being pulled from the piece.

Sorry for the blatant advert. Hope I'm not too late.

Cheers - Neil

[surfdabbler]

Hi Neil. Thanks for the suggestion. I've tried some spots with Wax and Grease remover, turps, metho, vinegar, soap, and others, and the rag comes up pretty clean.

I've started work, and stripped the internal drawers and started on the shellac. They look superb! I'll post some photos when I've done the french polishing.

[surfdabbler]

It's a slow project, but i did promise to send some photos.

I've got some new shellac on, and the beautiful woodwork is much more visible now! I tried various different approaches, but found that scraping the old finish off was easiest, quickest and safest. The old shellac was brittle and scraped off in a powder, and was quite easy to do without scraping the wood. A wash with alcohol and steel wool cleaned up any remaining old shellac, while preserving most of the original stain. For delicate areas, such as the burl veneer on the roll top, I didn't risk scraping that, and just dissolved the finish off with alcohol and steel wool.

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It's still a long way from finished, but it's all forward from here. On the side photo, you can see a piece of new moulding that wasn't colour matched yet, but that's been done since the photo was taken, so it blends in much better now.

[rwbuild]

What a fantastic result, look forward to seeing it when all finished

[Tonyz]

holey toledo batman that is flamin beautiful.