Future of the Australian Electricity Market

[woodPixel]

$600 million would buy an AWFUL lot of batteries!

or windmills. Or CAES. Or solar.

But no... the government back fossil fuels.

[AlexS]

The announcement of a gas fired station (660MW) at Kurri is interesting.

Hunter Power Project - Snowy Hydro

There are at least three types of gas fired power station. The first employs a conventional boiler but the fuel source is gas instead of coal. The second two utilise gas turbines. The best option of these is the so-called HRSG (Heat Recovery Steam Generator) where the exhaust gases of the turbine are fed into a boiler to produce low (usually) pressure steam that powers a conventional turbine/generator. In effect the heat from the waste gases is utilised thus making the unit much more efficient.

The last type is the OCGT (Open Cycle Gas Turbine) which is the least efficient model. It is this last type of installation that is going in to the Kurri plant, if it happens. Apparently the government is contributing $600,000 to the project in conjunction with "stakeholders."

NSW approves Morrison government’s $600m Kurri Kurri gas-fired power plant | Fossil fuels | The Guardian

I took this quote in particular as an example of a truth disguising an untruth.

"The federal energy minister, Angus Taylor, said the approval was an “important next step” for the project which aimed “to keep prices low and the lights on while creating jobs in the Hunter region”.

Yes, some jobs would definitely be created during construction ( but very few once operational. Those machines can usually be started from your mobile phone or from a remote location thousands of kilometres away) and it may keep the lights on during periods of high demand, but keeping energy prices low using the most expensive, commercial method of producing electricity known to man? Unlikely.

It may be that the announcement is purely political in a lead up to the federal election (Kurri Kurri is in the seat of Patterson, which while Labour held , had a swing to the Liberals in 2019). As to viability I can't see anything that runs for 2% of the year being a viable proposition.

For a moment there was a glimmer of hope in that it led me to believe the machines were designed to run on hydrogen at some point in the future, presumably when renewable power can generate enough excess power to produce hydrogen, but when I read on it would initially be a 10% H2 capability with maybe 30% at a later date.

Regards
Paul

A politician being careless with the truth? Surely not!

[Bushmiller]

$600 million would buy an AWFUL lot of batteries!

or windmills. Or CAES. Or solar.

But no... the government back fossil fuels.

WP

I am very interested to know more details of these backers/investors. What do they say? Follow the money.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

A politician being careless with the truth? Surely not!

Alex

Apologies and shame on me for suggesting such a thing. I am trying to keep a lid on my cynical side, but it's just not working!

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

I am very interested to know more details of these backers/investors. What do they say? Follow the money.

Are you perhaps hinting our old mates from the Middle Kingdom?

We make strange bedfellows given our .... disagreements.

[havabeer69]

The announcement of a gas fired station (660MW) at Kurri is interesting.


Yes, some jobs would definitely be created during construction ( but very few once operational. Those machines can usually be started from your mobile phone or from a remote location thousands of kilometres away) and it may keep the lights on during periods of high demand, but keeping energy prices low using the most expensive, commercial method of producing electricity known to man? Unlikely.

yeah i remember reading or hearing something about this a while and I think it was about 10 permanent positions once the place was built (I assume there would be a bit of contracted out labour that goes along with it)

[62woollybugger]

It will be interesting to see if the unions will let it go ahead. About 15 years ago someone tried to build an open cycle gas peaking plant in, I think, Victoria. A lot of the equipment had been ordered & built, then the unions put a green ban on it. It was to be a fast start peaking plant, but the unions would only let it go ahead if it was a combined cycle plant, which takes a lot longer to start up, so the whole project was canned.

[Bushmiller]

It will be interesting to see if the unions will let it go ahead. About 15 years ago someone tried to build an open cycle gas peaking plant in, I think, Victoria. A lot of the equipment had been ordered & built, then the unions put a green ban on it. It was to be a fast start peaking plant, but the unions would only let it go ahead if it was a combined cycle plant, which takes a lot longer to start up, so the whole project was canned.

WB

That set me thinking. Why would that be? Then I realised that 15 years ago the brown coal power stations of Victoria were in full swing. The Unions would have seen it as a threat to the revenue of existing stations and consequently their members. Since that time the extraordinarily dirty Hazelwood has been shut down and the writing is on the wall for Yallourn due to close in 2028 and even Loy Yang is tipped to close around 2030. Those dates, of course, are very flexible and will depend on the economic climate, but apparently some packages are already being offered to staff (probably selected groups and not across the board) to thin down the numbers. In that climate I doubt the unions would have much sway or even much inclination to wield a stick.

I suspect in any event it was something of a muscle flexing exercise all those years ago. You are quite right that the open cycle machines are quicker up to speed and full load, but I think the heat recovery versions can run without the boiler on the back so the GT component would be equally quick. I am not au fait with the GTs so if I have that wrong somebody please correct me. The associated low pressure boiler would take a lot longer to place in service. As soon as you have a boiler with tubes you also have restricted heat rates. The peaking plants need to be capable of starting and loading close to full load in around five minutes.

Regards
Paul

[Chief Tiff]

You are quite right that the open cycle machines are quicker up to speed and full load, but I think the heat recovery versions can run without the boiler on the back so the GT component would be equally quick. I am not au fait with the GTs so if I have that wrong somebody please correct me. The associated low pressure boiler would take a lot longer to place in service. As soon as you have a boiler with tubes you also have restricted heat rates. The peaking plants need to be capable of starting and loading close to full load in around five minutes.

That’s correct for the Condamine Power Station which has a pair of GT’s and a single steam turbine powered by Heat Recovery Steam Generators. The GT exhaust gasses can either go straight up their funnels or diverted through boilers first; but whereas the GT’s only take a few minutes to come up to power the steam turbine takes the best part of a day. At the moment the station is only being used to provide peak power, often only running for a few hours in the evenings so the steam system is under partial preservation and dehydration to prevent corrosion inside the boiler tubes. If it suddenly had to provide baseload it would take an additional two or three hours minimum to remove all the dehydration equipment and refill the boilers with feedwater.

While the GT’s can provide 44MW each; with both running and the HRSG’s online to drive the steam turbine the station gains another 57MW of generation capacity.

[Bushmiller]

Thanks Chief

I thought that was the case, but it is good to have confirmation.

Regards
Paul

[havabeer69]

couple of hours to come on line... wait till you come to an old coal clunker like ours that doesn't even have a turbine bypass valve.

[woodPixel]

Turbine bypass valve!

Man, you need to upgrade to the Hydrodyne supercritical turbopump reciprocating system.

It DOESN'T even have a TBV, as it uses a unique and heinously clever arrangement of six hydrocoptic marzlevanes, fitted laterally to the ambifacient waneshaft.

Probably bolts right on.

See? Dead simple.

[Optimark]

Just finished watching this. I've been following "Engineering with Rosie" for some time now, the latest one is about total costs (almost) for the four major ways we generate electricity in Australia. Rosie's background with regard to electricity generation, is as a wind turbine engineer. As far as I'm aware, she is Melbourne based.

I think I now understand more about the gas part of generation that we apparently need, in order to operate reasonably efficiently during the changeover period.

Renewables vs. Fossil Fuels: The True Cost of Energy - YouTube

Mick.

[Bushmiller]

Turbine bypass valve!

Man, you need to upgrade to the Hydrodyne supercritical turbopump reciprocating system.

It DOESN'T even have a TBV, as it uses a unique and heinously clever arrangement of six hydrocoptic marzlevanes, fitted laterally to the ambifacient waneshaft.

Probably bolts right on.

See? Dead simple.

WP

I think we now have a clue as to who grew up watching Star Trek and the like.



Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

These new wind farm announcements are now daily --> BlueFloat plans three Australian offshore projects - reNews - Renewable Energy News

ANOTHER 4.3 GW of wind.


Optimark, that YT video was outstanding. Highly illuminating.


Once again, it clearly shows that utter insanity and contempt this federal government has towards the people. That stupid gas fired plant at Kurri Kurri is an absolute crime.