Making doors.. scale?

[Ardep]

Hello. Long time lurker here. I'm a novice ww but took on the task of making my own external doors. We are building a 'modern country' inspired house in the very near future so the doors i am making are simple shaker style. We wanted a squared edge on all the joinery. So no option to buy stock doors.
Ive made the doors from douglas fir with a ply insert for lower section. Using large floating tenons. I used douglas fir because of its stability and relative weight. The doors are painted so I've been using selected building grade timber (kd) that I have been laminating on a jointed edge to get the sizes i am after. I live in the upper hunter near Newcastle and materials for joinery are scarce.
So my question is... do the width of the stiles of a door usually change with the overall change in width of the door? I have 3 doors made at 820 with stiles at 135 and need 2 at 620 so what width should the stiles be? Any comments would be appreciated.

[dinosour]

You and I are almost neighbors, Well done for having a go.
Having made several smaller door eg cabinets wth varying widths I have kept stiles and rails constant width.
Im in the process of makeing four timber screen doors to fit 1905 house. I will keep all the frame timber the same width.
To me it is more pleasing on the eye and lessons the issues with making them ie don't have to worry about scaling them.
That's my two cents worth, hope it all goes well.

[ian]

Hello. Long time lurker here. I'm a novice ww but took on the task of making my own external doors. We are building a 'modern country' inspired house in the very near future so the doors i am making are simple shaker style. We wanted a squared edge on all the joinery. So no option to buy stock doors.
Ive made the doors from douglas fir with a ply insert for lower section. Using large floating tenons. I used douglas fir because of its stability and relative weight. The doors are painted so I've been using selected building grade timber (kd) that I have been laminating on a jointed edge to get the sizes i am after. I live in the upper hunter near Newcastle and materials for joinery are scarce.
So my question is... do the width of the stiles of a door usually change with the overall change in width of the door? I have 3 doors made at 820 with stiles at 135 and need 2 at 620 so what width should the stiles be? Any comments would be appreciated.

Hi Ardep
what you should do is find USD $10.50 and purchase the PDF copy of Lost Art Press' Doormaking and Window-Making – Lost Art Press

Traditionally, the upper rail of a door is the same thickness as the stiles, while the bottom and lock rails are between 2-1/2 and 3x the stile width.

So for your 820 wide doors, the 135 wide stiles, imply a panel width of 550, a bottom and lock rail each about 350 wide, and a top rail at 135.
The lock rail is located between waist and chest height.

For your 620 wide doors -- I hope they are double doors, as I'm pretty sure that a 620 wide doorway does not comply with the Building code of Australia -- the outside styles would remain at 135, but the pair of inner stiles would each be around 70 wide, giving the appearance of a 4 panel door with a centre stile only marginally wider than the two outer stiles.


Hope this helps, but really you should refer to Doormaking and Window-Making – Lost Art Press

[ian]

Hope this helps, but really you should refer to Doormaking and Window-Making – Lost Art Press

and I should have added ...
if any of teh 820 wide doors are double doors, the centre stiles should be just over half the width of the outer stiles to maintain the visual look of a large 4 panel door.

[Ardep]

Thanks for the replys. I did start to try to the golden ratio... but that fell flat. I drew the doors to scale and so that's where I came up with the stiles and rail sizes. I must admit the 135mm was undressed so when measuring again its more like 125 once trimmed.
That is interesting that you picked the 620 as side by side as indeed they will be. I'm not sure about halving the stiles in the middle.. have to mull over that one.
I will get that resource and have a read.
The other thing that I probably should consider is the doors proximity to each other. I guess for cabinets they would all be close to each other or even side by side in a kitchen so scale would be important. For me the three doors at 820 are at the rear and the double doors are at the front and open to a verandah. The entrance door is a whole different kettle of fish in style as its a 3 lite 1000mm door. Perhaps over thinking?
Thanks again.

[Salv]

Watching from the sidelines here. I have two front doors to make, probably next year, one to replace the soul-less mass produced thing at home and the other a replacement at my folk's seaside home. I too am thinking of using KD construction timber, at least for my own, as it will be painted. Anyway, I was thinking where to begin and your recommendation, Ian, is very well timed. Though, I'll probably fork out for a hardcopy as a means of minimising my screen time.

Ardep, I'll keep an eye out for your door build thread

Cheers
Salv

[ian]

Watching from the sidelines here. I have two front doors to make, probably next year, one to replace the soul-less mass produced thing at home and the other a replacement at my folk's seaside home. I too am thinking of using KD construction timber, at least for my own, as it will be painted. Anyway, I was thinking where to begin and your recommendation, Ian, is very well timed. Though, I'll probably fork out for a hardcopy as a means of minimising my screen time.

hi Salv

To save you blundering around ... from Lost Art Press' website
Lost Art Press & International Ordering

Lost Art Press ships books to the United States [only]. All electronic books and most apparel are available outside the United States. For overseas customers, it will always be more economical to purchase books from one of our international retailers. The following international retailers sell our books and ship to most parts of the world.
Australia:
Lie-Nielsen Australia www.lie-nielsen.com.au Email: [email protected]
Carbatec Pty Ltd. www.carbatec.com.au locations, Brisbane, Syndney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Launceston


I find I drop in and out of the book, only reading the pages that I need for a particular task



just saying

[Beardy]

Another aspect to consider is regardless of door width your stiles need to remain wide enough to accommodate your lock / latch which is why they remain consistent

- - - Updated - - -

[riverbuilder]

Another aspect to consider is regardless of door width your stiles need to remain wide enough to accommodate your lock / latch which is why they remain consistent

- - - Updated - - -

true, but in the olden days, before things like epoxy glue were common, the reason stiles were wide was to allow a long tenon, providing strength and vertical bracing to the leaf frame, some wide and thick rails even had double tenons for this reason.

[ian]

if any of the 820 wide doors are double doors, the centre stiles should be just over half the width of the outer stiles to maintain the visual look of a large 4 panel door.

See this image from Door Making & Window Making
Figure 136 - Doors with rail out of line.jpg
Note how, with a double width door, the door frame adds "bulk" to the overall width of the opening, meaning that the two centre stiles look to be the same width as the outer stiles plus the frame.
BTW, the image above is an example of what happens when the rails are not properly aligned.


Elsewhere in the text, "The Author" -- who I believe was Charles Haywood himself -- says
"The size of the [self moulded] door, as shown is 6 ft.6 in. high, by 2 ft. 6 in. wide (1981 x 762 mm); the bottom and middle rail 9ins. wide (229 mm), and the stiles, muntins and top rail 4-1/2 ins (114 mm)wide."

Converting those dimensions to an 820 (nominal) wide door, your finished stiles -- at 125mm wide -- will be near enough to the correct width.


Lastly;
in the text, doors similar to what you are proposing to build are described as having
"stiles, top rail and muntins [if used] 4-1/2 or 5-1/2ins. wide" -- your 125 mm is right in the middle of this range, and
"rails 9 ins, or 11 ins. wide" -- again meaning that a rail 250 mm wide [finished width] would look right with a 125 mm wide stile.


Your proposed 620 doors could adopt a "diminished stile" look, with a glass panel at the top

Figure 70 - diminished style door.jpg

[ian]

true, but in the olden days, before things like epoxy glue were common, the reason stiles were wide was to allow a long tenon, providing strength and vertical bracing to the leaf frame, some wide and thick rails even had double tenons for this reason.

like this
Figure 41 - door ready for glueing.jpg

Note how the rail tenons are offset from the top / bottom of the door.
Best practice was wedged through tenons

[Ardep]

I do apologise to any members here who were waiting on the edge of their seats.

Doors are in, getting glass in short order.

20230330_185640 (1).jpg

Made from oregon. Used floating tenons. Made mortice with a router and upcut 12mm 4 flute endmill and edge jig. Used titebond 3 but found the working time very quick. Especially when trying to assemble the entry door.
Wife happy, Im happy.