Workshop Safety

[woodPixel]

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[BobL]

At a recent appointment with my physio she told me about some research that reported the "only bend the knees to pick up things" appears to have resulted in as many problems as it has saved. One outcome is that older people are now less flexible and have weaker backs. She is now encouraging me to use as wide a variety of bend/squat movements as possible within reason eg Lighter objects should be picked up by bending at the waist.

[ian]

At a recent appointment with my physio she told me about some research that reported the "only bend the knees to pick up things" appears to have resulted in as many problems as it has saved. One outcome is that older people are now less flexible and have weaker backs. She is now encouraging me to use as wide a variety of bend/squat movements as possible within reason eg Lighter objects should be picked up by bending at the waist.

BobL, you'll probably disagree, but your physio is wrong.

Older people in 2020 may have weaker backs, but I remember when cement came in 40 kg bags, and construction labourers were encouraged to carry two (=80 kg) at a time.
Back injuries -- ruptured disks and the like -- were almost the norm. It was common that only the exceptional (careful ??) labourer lasted beyond age 45.

If your physio is younger than about 50 or 55 she won't have seen the injuries common in the 1980s and earlier.

[BobL]

Hang on, I did say "within reason" - and 40kg is definitely not within reason.

What I'm talking about is if you drop something weighting a few kg on the floor - you should be able to pick that up without using your knees. AND if you happen to have a weak back it requires practice with lighter weights first. The physio said with a 65 year old should be able to pick up 4 kg (2 x 2L of milk) laying on the floor by bending without any pain. Some 65 years olds I know would be battling to reach teh floor unless they used their knees. I did check this out with a few doctors and they agree with my physio.

[AJ.]

If you are carrying a box of dismembered body parts I don’t really think whether you bend your knees or back is that important. Getting said box to where you intend to dispose of the body without being seen would be more important......... at least that’s my priority when doing this 😂

Cheers Andrew

[ian]

If you are carrying a box of dismembered body parts I don’t really think whether you bend your knees or back is that important. Getting said box to where you intend to dispose of the body without being seen would be more important......... at least that’s my priority when doing this

a "box of dismembered body parts" would weigh well in excess of 50 kg, perhaps in excess of 90kg, if you pick that up without squatting to use your knees -- well let's just say getting said parts to where you intend to dispose of the body "without being seen" could be beyond problematic. There is a reason behind the "body in the boot" stories.

[ian]

Hang on, I did say "within reason" - and 40kg is definitely not within reason.

oh you have led a very very sheltered life...

prior to the late 80s, 40 kg bags of cement and boxes containing 10 reams of photo copy paper were the norm.
I recall being in a training session around that time and asking a group of female office workers "how much does a child weigh?" My intended point being that mothers didn't think twice about bending their spines to pick up a child.

What I'm talking about is if you drop something weighting a few kg on the floor - you should be able to pick that up without using your knees. AND if you happen to have a weak back it requires practice with lighter weights first. The physio said with a 65 year old should be able to pick up 4 kg (2 x 2L of milk) laying on the floor by bending without any pain.

I'm not talking about bending over to pick up 2 litres of milk.

"Bend your knees, and tuck your chin in" is the mantra that should be adopted whenever you lift something heavy.

Some 65 years olds I know would be battling to reach teh floor unless they used their knees. I did check this out with a few doctors and they agree with my physio.

Bob, it's on account of the the spare tire many 65 y.o's carry about their waists ...

[Chief Tiff]

a "box of dismembered body parts" would weigh well in excess of 50 kg, perhaps in excess of 90kg

Only rank amateurs try to fit a whole body in one box. My usual practice is to split it between 3 boxes; one for the torso, one for the head and arms and the third for the legs.

I’m unable to fully implement the “bend your knees not your back” technique on the basis that my knees have been pretty shot since I was 20! I have to use a combination of bending down and bending over.

[BobL]

oh you have led a very very sheltered life...

prior to the late 80s, 40 kg bags of cement and boxes containing 10 reams of photo copy paper were the norm.
I recall being in a training session around that time and asking a group of female office workers "how much does a child weigh?" My intended point being that mothers didn't think twice about bending their spines to pick up a child.

Maybe you shouldn't make claims about my degree of "shelteredness" as I'd say I have I have lifted more more cement bags and other heavy things than most people on this forum.

For 6 long summer holidays (I started when I was 15) I worked in various places where I was basically paid to lift. For two years I worked in a concrete product works where I was "the mixer operator". This involved running a stationary truck size concrete mixer. The cement mixer bowl stood vertically and the 2m wide operator work platform was about 3 m off the ground and ran all the way around the mixer. Hoppers of sand, and various sizes/grades of blue metal towered above the mixer. A fork lift was used to lift bout a dozen pallets of bags of cement onto the work platform around the mixer. The operator had to release various amounts of sand, metal and water into the mixer, then cut open, and lift ~5 cement bags off the pallet and empty them into the mixer. The mixer was emptied via an opening in the base into a waiting front end loader which then delivered it to various moulding machines. We used to often go through more than 5 pallets a day. Once a week I had to climb into the mixer with a small jack hammer to chip/knock off off the stuck bits - zero PPE was provided

I also worked on the floor of the concrete plant picking up septic tank bricks, and emptying steel moulds containing various sides of thick concrete slabs and septic tank covers. Also worked on building site in form work construction stripping out steel form work trusses, sheets of marine ply, and 4x4 and 6 x 4' up to 6 m long and passing them thru openings to the floors above. HD Pneumatic jack hammer work included removing 1m x 1m by 3m long concrete beams about 6m off the ground, and removing an inch off every window frame opening from rooms of 7 floors of the Pan Pacfic hotel - somebody made a mistake!. My PPE included a hard hat, and a wet rag around my mouth. While chipping into the open widow frame opening my safety harness consisted of a rope anchored to an acro prop between the floor and ceiling of the room

In my mid 50s I was able to lay a 120 block, limestone wall. These buggers weighed 65 kg.
I could go on.

Short story is I do know how to lift heavy things and of course I use my knees for this sort of thing but unlike most people of my age I can still stand and touch my palms on the ground despite my substantial spare tyre that gets in the way.

[aldav]

I blame you for this woodPixel. What were you thinking starting a thread where BobL and ian could go head to head? The problem is not so much that it won't end well it's that it won't end at all.

[ian]

I blame you for this woodPixel. What were you thinking starting a thread where BobL and ian could go head to head? The problem is not so much that it won't end well it's that it won't end at all.

[rustynail]

The word Apprentice.....AKA Lifter.

[A Duke]

Hi,
I bet the guy in the box was not lifting with his back to end up in that condition.
Regards

[BobL]

Just to add to my "sheltered background".
Between 2006 and 2015 I was hobby chainsaw milling about every other weekend - these days its about once every few months
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This involves hefting chainsaw mills up onto logs and moving heavy timber slabs. I was fortunate that for most slabs I had access to a forklift but I was also abled to "walk" 40+kg slabs upright for several metres and stack them up to piles that were was it high. In terms of lifting stuff, my heaviest chainsaw mills weighed close to 40kg and while they had wheels and was able to wheel them into position there were times when my legs/knees are not able to extend high enough to lift the blighter up onto the logs. So after a standard knee lift an "arched back, and shoulders arm lift" was usually the quickest way to do this. The higher the log the greater the slope the less one has to push the mill and the less long term pain.

It may even sound sound counterintuitive but on the Arboristsite site I've written "risk assessments" for chainsaw milling, and multiple posts about how to modify mills and mill safely and ergonomically so by the end of a milling day an old fart like me was not completely wrecked.

i've had my back checked out several times by a couple of different specialists, not due to any sort of back issue, once because of pins and needles in my feet, and once because of knee problems and according to the various scans etc my back has about average wear and tear for my age. It's somewhat ironic that after being careful with bending at the knees to lift all my life, my worst joint problems are now my knees. I don't blame knee lifting for this.

[woodPixel]

Time to Bend The Knee!

Chop Chop!

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