Katoomba Monthly Temp average set to be SMASHED!!! AGAIN!!!

[ian]

I’m on the same page as most here but here’s a few thoughts for discussion.
The east coast of Oz was mostly rain forest way back, a lot of species that now only exist in Tas were up here.
This has been changed over the use of fire by the local original inhabitants, has anyone considered this in the call for aboriginal burning.

If I recall correctly, indigenous land management practices 230 years ago produced an environment reasonably tolerant to fire -- early settlers talk about "park like woodlands". But I'm not sure the carrying capacity of the land was all that great. Certainly not what is required to support a 25+ Million people

Also what effect have these current fires had on our remaining pockets of rainforest on the escarpment etc let alone the Wollemi region.

it's too soon to know whether the Wollemi pines survived the inferno.
As for the coastal rain forest Binna Burra burned back in October and UNESCO is asking hard questions about whether the burn has destroyed those qualities that led to the forest being declared a special region

Has any real in depth research been done on why various society’s have collapsed in the past ?

well the Hopi culture in SW USA collapsed around 1300 as a result of climate change impacting their viability.
Easter Island lost their timber forest and the society went backwards.
Europe is a heavily modified landscape that has been adapting to climate change for eons.

Ancor watt (yes, my spelling is completely off) is assumed to have collapsed when the surrounding rice paddies couldn't keep up the supply of food.

Ditto various communities in South and Central America and as you mentioned, where once forests and grasslands reigned Northern Africa is mostly desert.

Are we the next in line?

Unfortunately, I think so

[FenceFurniture]

Does anyone know the difference between cultural burning and any other back burning operation?

Yes, intensity. It is explained very well in the video in this news article:

This is a fascinating short read on Cultural Burning, and the 10 minute HD video at the bottom is excellent. Everything they say makes complete sense.
Indigenous fire practices have been used to quell bushfires for thousands of years, experts say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The wildlife gets affected and or dies just the same.

That is highly disputable. Because of the low intensity there is much more time for critters to get out of the way. Yes, some do perish, but it is not "just the same". Furthermore, because the energy output is so much less, the heat doesn't penetrate as far underground which means wildlife from there is much less affected.

[Beardy]

If you search for reptiles in an area that is regularly culturally burnt they are not as prolific as other areas

[AlexS]

Does anyone know the difference between cultural burning and any other back burning operation?

The wildlife gets effected and or dies just the same.

I haven't watched the video posted below, but listened to a couple of interviews with the same man. As I understand it, in cultural burning the flames only reach knee height, and the temperatures are much lower. I'm not sure how that is achieved - perhaps it's shown on the video. Reportedly, it's possible to walk barefoot on the ground immediately after the fire has passed. By comparison, I looked at an RFS controlled burn that had been carried out last spring. The flames appeared to have been 2-3 metres high, and didn't appear to have killed any trees, grasses or shrubs that were living. However, there was some charring on most trees and shrubs.
It looks like most local birds, snakes and mammals survive the burn (including bloody feral cats), but I'm not sure about insects and spiders, which are just as important. A complicating factor is that this year, perhaps because of the hot, dry weather, the larger spiders, birds and insects seem to have deserted the higher ground, I suspect in favour of the lower ground close to water.

[FenceFurniture]

If you search for reptiles in an area that is regularly culturally burnt they are not as prolific as other areas

Maybe (and that is only anecdotal evidence) but compared to an area that has more aggressive hazard reduction there would still be more reptiles. An area that has had a bushfire through it has virtually nil reptiles, so if cultural burning can reduce the bushfire hazard then surely that's a good thing isn't it?

Do you have evidence of that claim, or can you point to any? Have you been part of searches for reptiles?

[Beardy]

I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is better than the devastating uncontrolled fires we have been experiencing, I was just pointing out that it is not without its issues as well , not to mention the smoke hazard. The RFS have pointed this out how they have been demonised themselves for the smoke pollution from backburning in the past.

I received the information from my son who lived in an aboriginal community for over a year in the top end who regularly practice cultural burning and is also an experienced reptile spotter and photographer ( the main reason he was there)

[woodPixel]

A question I've been thinking about for a very long time:

--> At the time of European contact, why were there so FEW aboriginals here?*


Maybe, just maybe, that is all the land can support long term? Did "we" arrive at a Golden Time?


*edit: added a reference: Indigenous Australians - Wikipedia

[FenceFurniture]

I was just pointing out that it is not without its issues as well , not to mention the smoke hazard. The RFS have pointed this out how they have been demonised themselves for the smoke pollution from backburning in the past.

Yes well I think it's time people from the Big Smoke got over having some off-season smoke around. CB smoke would be nowhere near as bad as conventional hazard reduction smoke either - have a look at that 10 minute video - no safety gear at all except for gloves!

I have to admit to grumbling about it myself back in the day when I was a Pro Photog in Sydney - it would bugger up the late light! I did recognise it as necessary though

I received the information from my son who lived in an aboriginal community for over a year in the top end who regularly practice cultural burning and is also an experienced reptile spotter

This is exactly the problem with forming an opinion based an anecdotal evidence, and why it needs to be challenged. He was only there for one season, possibly part of the second. That season may have had less reptiles around for other year to year seasonal reasons. Claims like that need to be based on several years worth of observations, regardless of how experienced someone might be. Note that I am not saying that there is no decrease in reptiles, just that the evidence is far too short term, and not really scientific.

[FenceFurniture]

--> At the time of European contact, why were there so FEW aboriginals here?

I didn't think there were any humans at all....Terra Nullius and all that.

[Beardy]

Yes well I think it's time people from the Big Smoke got over having some off-season smoke around. CB smoke would be nowhere near as bad as conventional hazard reduction smoke either - have a look at that 10 minute video - no safety gear at all except for gloves!

I have to admit to grumbling about it myself back in the day when I was a Pro Photog in Sydney - it would bugger up the late light! I did recognise it as necessary though

This is exactly the problem with forming an opinion based an anecdotal evidence, and why it needs to be challenged. He was only there for one season, possibly part of the second. That season may have had less reptiles around for other year to year seasonal reasons. Claims like that need to be based on several years worth of observations, regardless of how experienced someone might be. Note that I am not saying that there is no decrease in reptiles, just that the evidence is far too short term, and not really scientific.

If you are searching in the same region on land that is subject to cultural burning and the adjacent area that is not and you can note a difference in wildlife populations I think that is a noteworthy reasonable observation.
Obviously the best case is to not have it burn at all but that is not realistic. I am just making the point because there are those that will think it is without a downside

Just on the smoke issue from the latest fires. Was Canberra effected more than other areas from the smoke?
I found it strange that they closed offices and public buildings because of it and yet they were probably the safest places to be with their filtration systems on their commercial AC units.

[doug3030]

The RFS have pointed this out how they have been demonised themselves for the smoke pollution from backburning in the past.

Hopefully after this round of fires people might learn to appreciate the need to do a controlled burn - cultural or otherwise. In future it would be good if people appreciate the work being done to make their property safer and thank the fireys instead of demonizing them. But there will always be those who are only happy when they have something to whine about.

In the past couple of weeks we have had a lot of smoke haze here in Melbourne and the nearest fires are hundreds of kilometers away. Surely people can put up with a few days of burning off every couple of years rather than go through this again.

[FenceFurniture]

Agreed Doug. I don't know if this already happens - perhaps it does - but the various Authorities could help "sell" the situation in advance by putting out warnings in the news ("next few days may be smoky - we've tried to select the best time yadda yadda") and also show some short footage of previous catastrophes to reinforce the point that it needs to be done. People are much less inclined to be upset if they know something is probably/possibly coming (that's basic sales training). It also gives asthmatics et al the opportunity to nick off for a while if they are in a position to do so, or buy some P2 masks.

One of the side issues that has been very slightly amusing to me is that the general population now knows what a P2 mask is - we've all known about them for years

[doug3030]

but the various Authorities could help "sell" the situation in advance by putting out warnings in the news ("next few days may be smoky - we've tried to select the best time yadda yadda") and also show some short footage of previous catastrophes to reinforce the point that it needs to be done. People are much less inclined to be upset if they know something is probably/possibly coming (that's basic sales training). It also gives asthmatics et al the opportunity to nick off for a while if they are in a position to do so, or buy some P2 masks.

If the authorities have not been advertising backburning activities, and I have never heard any advanced publicity for them, then it may be because if people who oppose them got advanced warning they could try to disrupt the operation or just protest somehow until the activity is called off. Maybe that attitude will change now.

[A Duke]

Hi,
The ACT has a site for upcoming , planed burns. They usually get moved around due to weather and/or available resources.
Regards

[AlexS]

Prior to a weekend of planned FR burns in a number of areas around Sydney last year, the RFS publicised that they would be happening, at least on the ABC. That didn't stop people ringing up to complain, some saying that if you live near the bush you should be prepared to put up with bushfires.

Some people are just efwits.