Learning to drive

[Glider]

For a few years now, learner drivers in NSW are required to log 120 hours supervised practice before they can be tested for a P1 licence. That must be a nightmare for parents with twins (or worse). I'm not aware of any manual which prepares a licensed driver to teach or supervise a learner to drive other than professional driving instructor training. Anyone can do it and there's plenty of dud drivers around.

I wonder if this has resulted in fewer accidents and injuries. I still see plenty of maddies driving on P plates and yesterday I was passed by an L plater on the 110 kph freeway.

mick

[elanjacobs]

Kids will do what they want, it could be 1000 hours and they'll still speed once they get their licence. The L plater speeding is more concerning, but, unless you mandate that all the hours are done with an instructor, there's not much to do about it.

The numbers do seem to indicate that the number of crashes has dropped since the system was introduced Australian road deaths drop by a quarter since 2004, young drivers' deaths halve - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) The road toll – trends and possible solutions - Western Alliance

[BobL]

It's very difficult to determine direct causes of changes in crash related statistics.

On one side there are things like better/safer vehicles, better health care facilities, improved roads, harsher penalties for traffic infringements and longer driver trainee requirements
One the other side there are more people and cars per km than ever before and some might say more idiots but I honestly don't think that has changed. Given that proportional fewer younger people are getting their licences as soon as they reach driving age.

Even if a log book requiring X hours of driving saves just a few lives a year I'm sure the families of those concerned are very grateful for it.

Here's how I got my light rigid (bus) licence in 1976. I was teaching in the country and was told that in 4 weeks I had drive a bus load of students to a campsite some 70km away but I had no bus licence. A week before we were due to go I found some "L plates" and another teacher with a bus licence took me for a half hour practice with the school bus. It was a full size 60+ seater bus with dubious synchro on first and second gears and a slipping clutch, so nothing like the usual Toyota Coaster type buses which are a doddle to drive.

The day before my departure, after school at 3:30pm I drove the school bus from the school to the cop shop and by the time one of the cops was ready to take me for my test it was 3:50pm. We got into the bus and the cop looked at his watch and said "Crikey, I knock off at 4pm, QUICK, drive around the block" and that was it. 2 minutes later we were back in the station and he was giving me a temporary licence. The next day with crunching gears and 60 odd screaming kids in the bus - and off we went.

[Chesand]

I believe that it should be compulsory that an Advanced Driving Course be done either before or immediately after getting their licence.

I sent my three off just after getting their licence and they all said it was one of the best things they did and it certainly saved my son on one occasion when an idiot was coming at him on a mountain road. He had the good sense to put the car into the hill side rather than going over the other side. The car was damaged but no injuries.

[rustynail]

I have two kids , both had the dubious pleasure of my instruction. The son was no problem but my daughter was not so fortunate. To help her overcome her difficulties (probably her father) we employed the services of a competent driving instructor to complete her training, a finishing school if you like. The difference this made between the two kids was amazing. The daughter ended up a much better driver than her brother who has since done an advanced driving course to keep up with his little sister.
Driving instruction is not for the faint hearted or the ill tempered.

[crowie]

G'Day Mike,
When I was doing Crash Survivor Talks for the RYDA Program the Police told me the statistics of the 17-26 year old drivers.
They held 17% of the licenses and 26% of the fatalities.
I put it down to "COTTON WOOLING" from age 3 - 18yrs; then out from under supervision of parents & teachers, adding mobile phones, drugs, alcohol, peer pressure, a 2t killing machine under there right foot along with no understanding of accountability, consequences or responsibility.
The collision I was in took 3seconds of inattention by a young inexperienced driver who was obeying all the road rules except in the 3seconds to adjust his heater whilst coming up to a corner crossed to the other side of the road were I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
The rest is history and I'm please to be able to share the story, life is good.
Cheers, Peter.

[Glider]

Lots of great points so far. I confess to fanging around when I was a kid in cars with drum brakes all around, rear leaf spring and front swinging arm suspension and tyres which were about 150 mm wide, if that. Thank goodness for safe modern cars.

I insisted that all mine learn of a manual. First lessons were in a paddock in a 4x4 in low range, almost impossible to stall. I stressed two principles. Firstly never trust another car's indicator and secondly in a panic stop, never forget you can steer as well as brake.

A mandatory advanced driving course would be a good start plus at least six professional driving lessons once the person can start, steer and stop. However you can get a restricted private pilot's licence in 30 hrs and unrestricted fly anywhere licence after 50 hours of professional instruction. 120 hours sounds like 10 hrs practice repeated 12 times. The problem with those sorts of thought bubble policies is that no one will reduce the time for fear of being blamed for a death or injury which might have happened anyway.

mick

[Chris Parks]

My favorite rant subject...

Every driver thinks every other driver is a dill and they themselves are perfect.

120 hours just allows every bad habit the instructor has to be drilled into the student more and more.

Advanced driving courses are good (I used to teach them) but if there is no opportunity to practise the skills then they are soon lost.

[rrich]

I believe that we had the 50 hour requirement. We have two that we taught to drive. Of the two boys:

The oldest, 50 YO this year, amazes me that he is still alive. He is also the one that at about age 18 or 19 told me that he was smarter than me. I have ridden with him and there are times when I've just closed my eyes. He has a Porsche and Audi. I would not get into either if he is driving. Before he graduated from college he totaled two cars and had two accidents in one day in the high school parking lot. After listening to his description of the accidents he went ballistic when I told him that it was his impatience that caused the accidents. He was really angry when I told him that he wasn't driving my cars any more.

SWMBO said that he needed a driving course. When he objected, SWMBO said your dad will go with you. In the course we were on a skid pad and I was out there having a good time basically steering with my foot when he said, "Gee dad, you're good at this." Later we're on an obstacle course that required parallel parking several times. About the third time I'm parallel parking, in in one move, out in one move, he says again, "Gee dad you're good at parking."

He was going off to college and just geography between home, work and school I had to buy him a car. (This gets good.) I went looking and found a diesel Ford Escort, a couple of model years down but new, that was fairly well loaded with amenities. It was also a bigger dog than the Escorts of the rental car fleets. It was one of those vehicles that couldn't get out of its own way. AND because the dealer couldn't sell it, the price was exceptionally reasonable. I think that the dealer would have taken even less for the car. I show it to my son. His words, "You know nothing about what cars a kid wants. I don't see why you can't lease me a Toyota Celica Supra." I told him that, "I'm investing money in you, a car and I want you to come home from college alive and not in a box." He responded with "I don't want your dumb old car." Me? Just laughing and "OK."

At the time he was working for Disneyland, as a ride operator, and a small construction company as, for lack of better words, as a CFO. Reading between the lines I believe he had a conversation with his boss about leasing him a car. I gather that his boss explained the facts of life to my son. About a week later my son asked me to step out onto the patio because he needed to talk. He was obviously 'Eating Crow'. He told me that he "would like to accept my most generous offer" to buy him a car. Unfortunately the diesel Escort was gone. Although a Toyota dealer had a couple of dog Tercel with the smallest possible engine and automatic transmission and A/C at absurd pricing. I bought one and he drove it with a boom box in the back seat for a radio. He drove it for about 2 years until it was totaled but he didn't get the blame for the crash. I loaned him the money to cover what the insurance on the Tercel was going to pay but the payments on his new Acura were all his. When the insurance check came in, I got paid.

The other son is very much subdued in his driving. He got a hand me down '80 Datsun 310 as his first car. Not a bad car but it would eat head gaskets. When he had it at school in Ft. Collins, Colorado it ate the third or fourth head gasket. Having to get that fixed at the dealer over the phone was a chore. About that time I had a new F-250 7.3L Diesel on order. So I gave him the old '86 F-250 6.9L diesel when the new truck came in.

And this told me that my philosophy about giving the kids a dog vehicle when they are first driving. He was home and delivering Pizza for Dominos driving the F-250. He had been delivering in and around the high school during the mid to late afternoon. He came into the house and just plops down in a chair. SWMBO is concerned until he says, "EVERY kid needs to drive a diesel pickup for a couple of years before they get a car. It will teach them patience."

[rrich]

There is one other thing about teaching kids to drive.

If you can, teach them how to drive in a car with a standard transmission! (Stick shift, i.e. with a clutch) The longer that they drive with a clutch, the more they become one with a car. They get the feel for what a car does and doesn't do.

Later in life, they won't go to someone and say "Rich, My temperature warning light is on. Would you follow me home." I dug a 2L Coke bottle out of the trash and put water in the radiator. Then I asked when you first start it, do clouds of white smoke come out?" The answer was no so probably not a head gasket problem. I gave her instructions to have the radiator flushed and fluid changed. Her comment was, "You have to do that?"

I had never ridden with her, so I don't know if she actually drove a car or just aimed it.

The really sad part was a couple of days later, her husband called me at work. He thanked me profusely for "fixing" her car. All I could say was, "Your welcome." while shaking my head.

[Handyjack]

My son learnt to drive a Toyota Corolla, mine since new, one year older than him. Once he got his licence at 18 he then drove it for the next 6 years. Had one minor bingle in the first 12 months that we never repaired.

Daughter got her learners at 17 and did the required 120 hours in 12 months. I bought her a Mazda 2 manual so she could learn a manual. She had professional lessons regularly and drove both my auto wagon and her Mazda 2 manual for practice. After one long drive, just before home, she hit the bluestone kerb in a bend in our street. Put holes in the side of both passenger side tyres. Dad not happy. . She got her manual licence first go at 18. Four weeks later she is driving to her first day at college, hits a kerb and puts a hole in the side of a tyre. I had tried to teach her how to change a tyre, but she called road side service. Dad not happy. . Over the next four years she side scraped a parked car and on another occasion hit the kerb and damaged another tyre. . Unfortunately on the weekend someone ran into the back of the Mazda 2, (not her fault) and there is a good chance it will be written off. Dad not happy again. . Fortunately no real physical injuries.

[elanjacobs]

Just goes to show that you can't teach spatial awareness... It bugs me no end when I'm stuck 2 cars behind a car turning right and there's enough space for a truck to go around on the left but the driver in front just has no idea how big their car is, so all 5 people behind have to wait

The other thing that should be mandatory for learners is time in a small car; you feel quite vulnerable sitting next to a 4wd whose wing mirrors are higher than your roof or a truck whose wheels are at eye level. The downside is that I'm pretty bad at reading traffic and planning my lane changes because, for the last 8 years, I physically haven't been able to see past the car in front of me.

[rrich]

Fortunately no real physical injuries.

Handyjack,

Change the gender and car brands and it sounds like my son. We need to meet up and flavor some ice cubes together.

[Glider]

Just goes to show that you can't teach spatial awareness...
The downside is that I'm pretty bad at reading traffic and planning my lane changes because, for the last 8 years, I physically haven't been able to see past the car in front of me.

Is it spatial awareness? Or timidity? Parking certainly requires spatial. I know we've all seen incredible ineptitude in this department which I'm sure indicates that the person never learned the simple formula from a pro. I suspect it might be either situational awareness or sheer thoughtlessness; like people who wait for a red light in the middle lane and then indicate a turn when the light changes to green. I suppose nobody's ever told them other than with rude hand gestures.

The thing that I notice often on the road is drivers whose focus of vision is 50 metres in front of the car. You see them accelerating towards a red light or changing into a lane blocked by parked cars and before changing their mind. My kids were always taught to look out as far as you can see including the tangent when cornering. When taught to land a plane, you're told to look at the very end of the runway. This smoothes out the pilot's control inputs and produces a nice two or three point landing. The same applies in cars. I still don't think that tens of hours of practice will compensate for poor instruction.

I can't figure out why cars and utes have to be so big too, Elan. 10-15 years ago on a canoe trip into the Minnesota Boundary Waters I was staggered by the chest high bonnet (hood) of an American mate's ute. Now we have them in Oz! My old farm ute has a waist high front and is still able to take a tonne of gravel or a full 1200x2400 sheet of ply. Who needs a tank?

mick

[rrich]

" learners is time in a small car;"

We had just bought my SWMBO a Ford Explorer, MY 2002. We were going to a new restaurant in a shopping center. As it was a new car SWMBO says, "Park way out there so no one will park next to us." So I park and before we get out a Jacked Up Ford Excursion parks next to us taking up half the adjacent space and ¾ of the space adjacent to that space. Sitting in the Explorer and at normal eye level I can look under the chassis of the Excursion. I'm sitting there giggling and the driver drags a small step ladder from the back seat and uses that to climb down from the excursion. Once out, he puts the step ladder back in the Excursion and walks away. SWMBO who almost never even uses words like H*** or D*** says "I've never seen anything so effing stupid in my life." In our 54 years of marriage, that was the only time I ever heard her use the "EFF" word.