Did anyone go to the HTPAA Tool Sale in Melbourne today?

[doug3030]

I went to this event today. I had not been to one of their sales in over 12 months. The sale was not how I remembered them and was quite frankly disappointing.

I am not writing this to run down the sale or the Association - just telling it like it is. I took some time to talk about this with some of the stallholders and club members. They too were disappointed with today.

First impressions. there were probably less than 20 people lined up when the door opened - not 100. There seemed to be fewer stalls/tables of goods for sale and each table had less on it. What was there lacked excellence. There were still some old Stanley, Record, Carter etc planes but the range was limited and prices seemed much higher than 12 months ago. Good quality Stanleys like I have bought in the past for maybe $100 were now priced not much short of a new Lie-Neilsen plane of a comparable model. There were Stanley planes for sale still in the packaging they sell them for in Bunnings today. I even saw tools for sale on some tables that are also available in ALDI. Wooden molding planes that used to be $5 to 10 were now $20 to 50 and in short supply and often incomplete or the iron did not match the sole or similar. In short, I had a wallet-full of money and could not find anything worthy of spending it on.

After about two hours there, I found myself in a conversation with two stallholders, one of whom had only just covered the cost of his table for the day and the other had not done much better. During our short conversation I learned that it is getting harder and harder to find sources of the good quality older tools and it is getting more and more expensive for them to find even the newer, poorer quality tools. In short the price increase has not been driven by the stallholders but by the sources of supply and the stallholders are concerned for the future of the sales as the buyers will not pay the price of presenting the tools for sale.

On the other hand to summarize the conversations I had with other potential buyers, or overheard from them, as a group they had not seen such a load of poor quality overpriced tools before.

HTPAA of course got their site fees and admission fees so they would have covered costs but I am guessing that they too would be concerned about the prospects for the future of the sales. It looks like it is the old story of supply and demand, rather than the fault of anyone involved. hopefully it will resolve itself as these sales have been a good source of tools for me and many other woodworkers over the years.

Did any other forum members have a similar experience today or have any other thoughts on this?

[doug3030]

A Duke wants picture(s) for this post

Sorry A Duke, I saw nothing to inspire me to pull out the phone and take a photo. Maybe I should have photographed the bacon and egg sandwich I bought from the cafe in the church hall where the sale is held as that was the best value item I saw all day and was extremely nice, but this is a woodwork forum not a food blog.

[Handyjack]

One thing that may or may not have effected numbers is the location of the sale, cnr Neerim and Grange Roads, Carnegie. Grange Road was I believe closed due to removal of the level crossing (near Dandenong Road) so passing traffic may have been reduced. I have avoided the area the last couple of weeks so would not have seen any signage outside the building.
I attended one day last year and was disappointed. Yes I came near the end, and stall holders were packing up or talking among themselves.

I filled in a competition form and thought maybe I would get a reminder of sales if my email was included, member or not.

Just my thoughts.

[Optimark]

I've been going to these HTPAA sales for quite some years now, one thing that I think doesn't help, is that these tool sales are held three times a year. I know this helps one to get to at least one of these events annually; but it must be a financial drag on those actually holding a stall.

Last time I visited, the best thing I bought; in fact the only thing I bought, was a toasted cheese sandwich and hot chocolate. I agree with you Doug, great food.

I didn't go to the last sale, I have been at all sales prior, at this latest venue and noticed that things were definitely going up in price and down in quality.

HTPAA does stand for Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia, which is fine. But it could be they may need to refine their approach with some tweaking of their public sales to ensure they can still keep on preserving hand tools.

Mick.

[aldav]

As a seller I've never found the organisers particularly organised or helpful. Having said that, once I was 'installed' at a sale, the senior club members were always friendly. I attended at the new venue on the first occasion it was used and found the access for sellers without an 'in' with the hierarchy was abysmal. I've always thought that three sales a year is too many. The last few times I attended sales did not justify my attendance. So never again.

As you know Doug I sell new products, I could count on one hand the number of used items I've sold over the years, so things are a little different for me. I found that even offering products at the forum prices, after a 640Km round trip and paying the table fee, there were plenty of lookers and card takers, but no sales or follow up from those who showed interest. For a lot of the sellers their attendance is as much about the social aspect as it is about selling.

[rrich]

I'm not sure what HTPAA is but I'm assuming it is like 'The Woodworking Shows'. Both are victims of the Internet and haven't realized it yet.

[aldav]

I'm not sure what HTPAA is

Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia. There are sister associations in most Australian States Rich. Unlike the wood shows, and because of their club nature, tables are at a very reasonable cost. I suspect you're right about the internet.

[Bushmiller]

After about two hours there, I found myself in a conversation with two stallholders, one of whom had only just covered the cost of his table for the day and the other had not done much better. During our short conversation I learned that it is getting harder and harder to find sources of the good quality older tools and it is getting more and more expensive for them to find even the newer, poorer quality tools. In short the price increase has not been driven by the stallholders but by the sources of supply and the stallholders are concerned for the future of the sales as the buyers will not pay the price of presenting the tools for sale.

Doug

Does this reflect the general state of the market for second hand goods? It has been suggested that the internet is taking away sales, but I am not so sure about that. My impression is that the same thing is happening on the likes of Ebay as well. Goods are increasing in price generally.

I think we can contribute this to a number of reasons:

The old economic reasoning of supply and demand is very much at the forefront and with second hand goods this is a finite resource. There is not an inexhaustible supply of vintage Stanley planes, for example, as there is no mechanism to step up production. Secondly, we have the advent of the opportunity sellers on the net who don't even know which end of the plane to hold. Thirdly there is the tendency of people to ask ridiculous prices (actually no price is ridiculous as the only measurement is whether something sells for that price. This is coming from me, who every day utters the phase "you have to be ******g joking" to the extent it is now viewed as common useage in this household and has been handwritten into our Macquarie dictionary. ) and this does push prices a little. Lastly there are the dealers, who may specialise in tools but also may not and this last category is also on the up.

In fact the last purchase of a woodworking tool I made a couple of days ago came from a clothing boutique. If it is what I think it is I will be able to claim "From rags to riches," but more likely it will be another disappointment. I am starting to become the king of fizzle.

None of these issues is the reason by itself and they must be taken as a whole. However the prices will continue rising until such time as the collectors say enough is enough and then they will reduce. I think you may first see that back on the stalls at the likes of the HTPAA as they have to pay for their site and it is uneconomic to take all the stock back home. Unfortunately on Ebay that is not true for many as the listings are free. However, after six months even the penny drops for those people too.

Regards
Paul

[bueller]

I don't bother with the ones in WA any more, prices have gotten to the point where I'd rather spend more and buy something brand new from HNT Gordon or Lie-Nielsen. Used to be worthwhile cleaning up old Stanley's for use but these days the price you pay for the condition you get is silly.

[elanjacobs]

I was there and thought it was a bit quiet compared to previous sales. Seems to be a lot of sellers are laying out the same stuff time after time because they're too pricey; they're not completely stupid, but certainly not bargains. About the only really good buys are Peter McBrides $5 Aussie Wiltshire files