Building design costs

[Arron]

We’re currently engaging a building designer to design our new home. We have interviewed two, actually one a building designer and the other an architect. We are very happy with the designer, however, I would like to reality check his fees before we go ahead, just by comparing with other recent jobs rather then wasting anybody else’s time by getting them to quote on jobs they are very unlikely to get.

So has anyone had a house designed in the recent past. If so, what did you pay?

Or is there a designer or builder out there able to give an opinion?

Further information which may be important. Location is Central Coast NSW. House is 4 bedroom, 4 bathroom, 2 storey, probably structural steel. I’m hoping to limit the build cost to $750,000, though there are indications I might be dreaming. Service required is from concept to construction certificate.

Ps. I know there are numerous (and amazingly contradictory) cost guidelines on the web, I just want to hear from people who have really done it.

Cheers
Arron

[cava]

Had a house designed a few years ago, and from memory the design side alone came to circa $20,000.

The design was really good and a lot went into it, with many visits to the property and to ourselves by the design team. Quite impressed actually!

[Beardy]

Aaron there is not really a standard price for designing a building. People charge what the market will pay for them. You can pay as little as $2,000 for a building designer to $100,000 plus for a well known sought after architect,
Where you sit in the equation is hard to gauge as it all depends on your needs and expectations, quality of architecture you are looking for and your overall budget and design restraints on the site that need to be addressed.
if you have a simple block of land and looking for more a project home style of product one of the cheaper building designers may suit your needs but as your requirements become more complex you might be looking for someone with a more innovative approach and artistic flair so it is difficult as there is no black and white answer. It is a case of finding the right fit for your needs and at a reasonable price, this can be difficult to do if you haven’t been through the process before

One thing I will tell you is that it doesn’t matter which end of the scale you end up with they are all hopeless at working to a budget, they really have no concept of the $$$ implications when they draw pretty lines on a piece of paper

I used to do a lot of design and construct new homes for clients in the 700k to $1.5million category and I had a few different designers/ architects that I engaged depending on the criteria I talked about above.

How do you intend on building it, are you owner building or putting the job out to tender? Or?

[Arron]

Aaron there is not really a standard price for designing a building. People charge what the market will pay for them. You can pay as little as $2,000 for a building designer to $100,000 plus for a well known sought after architect,
Where you sit in the equation is hard to gauge as it all depends on your needs and expectations, quality of architecture you are looking for and your overall budget and design restraints on the site that need to be addressed.
if you have a simple block of land and looking for more a project home style of product one of the cheaper building designers may suit your needs but as your requirements become more complex you might be looking for someone with a more innovative approach and artistic flair so it is difficult as there is no black and white answer. It is a case of finding the right fit for your needs and at a reasonable price, this can be difficult to do if you haven’t been through the process before

One thing I will tell you is that it doesn’t matter which end of the scale you end up with they are all hopeless at working to a budget, they really have no concept of the $$$ implications when they draw pretty lines on a piece of paper

I used to do a lot of design and construct new homes for clients in the 700k to $1.5million category and I had a few different designers/ architects that I engaged depending on the criteria I talked about above.

How do you intend on building it, are you owner building or putting the job out to tender? Or?

Thanks Beardy. I realise it’s all different and all a range and very hard to be specific etc. Nonetheless, I need to deal with the issue, so I need to gain some comfort going forward that charges are in the ballpark. That’s why I was hoping to get some first hand accounts coupled with a brief description of what was involved and satisfaction with the process. With a couple of those on hand, I’ll gut feel it.

Basically, it’s a flat, level and very narrow block. Views out the front and to one side. Living rooms on top level to get the views. Knock down rebuild. Nothing unusual in the brief because we want the house aligned to common tastes, rather then something quirky and difficult to sell. I’d like a bit of good taste and flair going on at the front but otherwise nothing unique. Flexible, likeable and realistic clients to deal with. Because of these limitations I feel the place pretty much designs itself.

Currently we’re thinking do a fixed price contract to lock up stage,then owner build from there. Maybe, depends upon whether I’m up for the hassles. But I wouldn’t have thought this would affect the design process, or does it?

Anyway, thanks for the warning about inability to consider budget implications. I will need to keep that on track.
, and we will be checking with referees so will need to focus on this point.

Cheers
Arron

[rwbuild]

I do design work up to council submission including BASIX. Average 4 bed double garage single storey $2000
Just finished one for a client, existing house single storey on fairly sloping block with major extension, highly detailed construction including certification of laminated timber beams (which I'm accredited to do), 5 different floor levels, cathedral ceilings floor to ridge 4.5m, main bed and parents retreat highest level, commercial grade double glazed windows and specified finishes. I spent 2 days taking site levels, lots of concept drawings for client assessment, taken 8 months in total. It was agreed do and charge final cost in excess of $10k. I keep a close eye on my yearly earnings so it doesn't impact on my pension so I cherry pick which jobs I take on.
This may give you some idea but as what Beardy said is spot on.
With regard to splitting between contract to lock up then complete as owner builder I think you better talk to Fair Trading, there are some real legal issues involved there and introduces some very trick areas of liability.

[Arron]

Thanks Ray
When you say ‘up to council submission’, does that mean up to the stage of construction certificate approval, and does it give the owner detailed plans from which builders can quote and build. I’m just asking because one website said it didn’t. It implied that after gaining the construction certificate, a very much more detailed set of plans should be drawn up, which were equal in cost to all the work up to an including gaining the construction certificate. I think it was Archicentre, but I can’t now refind it.

The quote I have received seems to mean that the plans submitted for construction certificate are the finished product, and suffient for any builder to work off. Big difference, roughly double the cost in the first case.

Thanks for the warning about owner building from LUS. One of many things I need to learn.

Cheers
Arron

[Beardy]

Thanks Beardy. I realise it’s all different and all a range and very hard to be specific etc. Nonetheless, I need to deal with the issue, so I need to gain some comfort going forward that charges are in the ballpark. That’s why I was hoping to get some first hand accounts coupled with a brief description of what was involved and satisfaction with the process. With a couple of those on hand, I’ll gut feel it.

Basically, it’s a flat, level and very narrow block. Views out the front and to one side. Living rooms on top level to get the views. Knock down rebuild. Nothing unusual in the brief because we want the house aligned to common tastes, rather then something quirky and difficult to sell. I’d like a bit of good taste and flair going on at the front but otherwise nothing unique. Flexible, likeable and realistic clients to deal with. Because of these limitations I feel the place pretty much designs itself.

Currently we’re thinking do a fixed price contract to lock up stage,then owner build from there. Maybe, depends upon whether I’m up for the hassles. But I wouldn’t have thought this would affect the design process, or does it?

Anyway, thanks for the warning about inability to consider budget implications. I will need to keep that on track.
, and we will be checking with referees so will need to focus on this point.

Cheers
Arron

Based on this suggest having a good look at some of the design and construct local builders. You should find some at the likes of a Homeworld type display village near your area.
You will likely find this to be the most cost effective way forward with the only better option being running with a standard design from a high volume builder.
Getting plans drawn and approved and then choosing a builder is a more expensive way to move forward and has many more pitfalls for the budget to bleed whereas a design and construct style contract is more efficient across all the design and construction aspects of the project with fixed pricing up front.
You initially mentioned structural steel so I thought you were planning on something more unique which is why I didn’t raise this option first.
I don’t know what you have been quoted but typically designers will break their fee structures into three areas.
1. Conscept design stage where sketch plans are prepared. A fixed fee for a client brief, a preliminary design prepared and then one or two amendment consultations after which hourly rate will be charged for further changes
2. Provide detailed plans suitable for DA / CC or CDC approval. A fixed fee
3. Prepare supporting documentation and lodge submission for approval. A fixed fee plus an hourly rate for any time spent conversing with council during the approval process

Some further options
-Preparing tender documents and receiving tenders from prospective builders
-Supervising and administering the building construction phase.

As Ray said, getting to lock up and finishing the build yourself is not really a viable option any more. You would need to do an owner builders course and your building will not have any home owners warranty which devalues it come sale time. Apart from that, unless you are going to physically complete most of the items left bar plumbing and electrical it will probably end up costing you more money going down this path anyway.

[rwbuild]

Thanks Ray
When you say ‘up to council submission’, does that mean up to the stage of construction certificate approval, and does it give the owner detailed plans from which builders can quote and build. I’m just asking because one website said it didn’t. It implied that after gaining the construction certificate, a very much more detailed set of plans should be drawn up, which were equal in cost to all the work up to an including gaining the construction certificate. I think it was Archicentre, but I can’t now refind it.

The quote I have received seems to mean that the plans submitted for construction certificate are the finished product, and suffient for any builder to work off. Big difference, roughly double the cost in the first case.

Thanks for the warning about owner building from LUS. One of many things I need to learn.

Cheers
Arron

When I do plans it is a complete set that a structural engineer can use for their part of the plans which is required for council to issue a construction certificate, you will need a site classification report also before the engineer can design the slab/footings, and the plans are complete so any builder can quote/tender, just be aware that you have to specify finishes, schedule of fittings/fixtures/styles, PC items, color schemes both internal and external also most councils now also require a basic landscape plan as well.
Archicentre is for upper/high end market or zoning/heritage sensitive projects, they are expensive.

[Arron]

Ok, thanks guys.
We did look at the project homes and discuss with both builders and other owners. We largely decided against it because we felt that by the time we made the mods from their plans to ours we would end up paying just as much as a custom build for a patch up job.

It’s not that we want anything better or more complicated then one of the better project homes.

It’s just that we want something different.

Other owners who had been down the same route said that the project home builders had rushed to accept the job, but then became rigid and difficult and the owners had to fight them all the way and didn’t end up getting what they wanted anyway.

We have been told that to get a better-then-basic specced project home on our block of the size we want would cost about $550,000. We have a couple of wants that aren’t in virtually any of their homes though - upside down double story, large balcony at front, a way to appreciate great views to side, driveway at side to existing garage to be retained, couple of car ports at rear. I would have thought that they could accommodate those extra requirements for an extra $200,000, but other owners said don’t go down this route. One or two of the project home builders, when declining the issue themselves, strongly advised us not to engage with their competitors on this basis as we will be subject to deceptive conduct.

It’s a shame, I would be perfectly happy with a nice double story project home as I see them at Homeworld, it’s just that we don’t want one of their suburban boxes sitting on our waterfront block (well, waterfront except for the road in front of us).

The thing about structural steel is that we would prefer the big spans steel can give us to give uninterrupted views and a nice, streamlined, maritime look to the place. However that’s really only at the front of the house and one half of one side. The rear half of the house no-ones going to see so it might just as well be a timberframed box. If it’s going to be too expensive than we have to be realistic and change our thinking. Maybe a timber framed home with a limited number of steel girders out the front to support the balconies is just as good. Or maybe the whole thing can be done in timber - I don’t know.

The problem is we really can’t get guidance on how much extra steel costs us. The architects/designers won’t estimate till they get deeper into the process and the local builders won’t comment outside the context of actually quoting on finished plans. It’s hard to go forward, except to accept the process and be subject to several expensive revisions or restarts of the design process.

Thanks for your comments anyway. I appreciate your guidance.
Cheers
Arron

[Arron]

Thinking about this further,

I don’t really understand the market.

We live in a coastal district where every second house gets some type of view and wants a house built accordingly.

However, going to homeworld, all the houses are suburban McMansions designed for modern suburbs of Sydney or The Hunter which are basically pretty ugly environments so the houses are designed to ‘look inward’, in effect.

i Guess the key differences with our area is that people want to preserve the views, appreciate outdoor living in the favourable climate, don’t actually want to give the best part of the house to their cars in the form of double garages at the front, want living rooms upstairs and don’t want an unfriendly streetscape as comes from a row of bluff-fronted houses.

So why are there not project homes designed for our situation? Or are there ? It’s a niche but it’s still a big market. Or is there someone who occupies some type of middle ground between suburban-box project home and nosebleed expensive custom build ? Is there someone else we should be talking to?

————————
Edit just reread Beardys post and note that he’s talking about ‘design and construct local builders’. Not entirely sure who they are but I will investigate them further.

Cheers
Arron

[damian]

If you want a project home to take advantage of a view look to the country builders. There are spec home builders in country areas that do that sort of thing. The trouble with the central coast is it's virtually a suburb of sidinee these days with all the rubbish that comes with that.

The reason most 2 storey houses have living downstairs and bedrooms up is because it's traditional. It also allows you to hide the mess from guests. Most women like that layout, so that's what they build. You want an "upside down" house. There are niche builders with those designs but as you say you are going to have to look.

The thing to watch with the cheapie spec home builders is they suck you in with low std prices then sting you to death with mods and upgrades. It's like jetstar etc, if you add luggage and a meal you're paying quantas prices but your stuck in a plane full of bogans that's unlikely to take off on time, or arrive at all. Do look at the dearer spec home builders, and talk to them about existing plans. Many of the higher ends ones have design services in house where you can have pretty much any floorplan you want and they will help develop it with you.

So look for quality spec home builders with a strong country presence. Last time I looked you would expect to pay $1500 sqm ish, might be more now.

I want to owner build if I ever find the right block, but I'm only doing that because I'm a crochety old sob who wants it done my way so I want to maintain control over the build throughout.

This is just my personal experience/prejudice. I absolutely would not let an architect any where near my house. They make everything twice as dear, half as useful and sting you a fortune for the privilege of having your home stuffed. Of course engineers and architects are like mongoose and cobra. We are always trying to make stuff efficient, cheap, functional and easy. They are a pack of... artists.... I've seen several friends go down that route despite my warnings (no one ever listens to me). The lucky ones paid them out and bailed early, the unlucky ones are still paying the mortgages and trying to live in the garbage houses they got stuck with... ask me and I'll tell you how I really feel.

Good luck. The CC is a beautiful part of the world and I have many friends down there.

[Arron]

Thanks for the perspective. We’ll look a bit wider.

Discussing it further with my wife today, we agreed that what would make us happy is
- modern minimalist front to the house - exterior, that is. We call it ‘maritime minimalist’.
- rest of the house on-one sees but the possums so just a serviceable timber framed rectangle is good
- inside we would be happy with ‘upper spec project home’ look. Nothing special.

Obviously, we don’t need an architect to deliver that. Any good building designer should be able to.

Interested to hear about the owner builder thing. I’m still uncertain about the OB after LUS, but will start a new thread on that presently, keep this one focused on the design stage.

Cheers
Arron

[markkr]

Hello Arron,

We did something similar. Paid architect for concept drawings. Then went to recommended local builder, whose design department took design through council, and to CC. Because of design changes, we ended up paying a bit more for that stage, though not unreasonable. Can't recall costs, but could probably dig them out, as it was five years ago.

I wanted specific passive solar features, including tilt and turn double glazed windows and SIPs externally. The build team admitted they were not familiar with either, so ended up with some relatively minor stuff ups, but overall the builder was OK, especially if house would be fairly conventional. They are based in Berry, but have office in Castle Hill.

I did the joinery for bathroom and kitchen cabinets after the build, then the plumber came back (included in price) to do final fix (bathrooms and kitchen separately). Took 18 months till kitchen was complete (pretty patient wife!) and no dramas with builder sending tradie back.

Don't know if they would work on Central Coast, but would be happy to recommend them for a conventional build. Since WWF is 'searchable' I won't name them here, but PM me if you're interested.

Cheers,

Mark

[ian]

Discussing it further with my wife today, we agreed that what would make us happy is
- modern minimalist front to the house - exterior, that is. We call it ‘maritime minimalist’.
- rest of the house on-one sees but the possums so just a serviceable timber framed rectangle is good
- inside we would be happy with ‘upper spec project home’ look. Nothing special.

Obviously, we don’t need an architect to deliver that. Any good building designer should be able to.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

questions I think you might want to consult an architect about include

• where the entrance should be located
• how the entrance should relate to the rest of the house, especially the stairs to the upper "impress the visitors" level. It might be desirable to make these wider than normal as they will get more traffic than is typical for stairs in a two level house. Perhaps they should be wide enough for two people to comfortably pass on them.
• width and placement of any balconies on the upper level -- this will be your primary outdoor entertainment area as the back yard will probably be an extension of the bedrooms.
• if you intend staying in the house till your end you might want to consider incorporating a lift near the entrance from the street, driveway or garage.
• Perhaps a dumb waiter to gt groceries from the garage to the upper level kitchen.
• how well do you want the the ‘maritime minimalist’ front of the house integrated with the rest of the structure?

You might describe this front facade as 'maritime minimalist' taking advantage of the views

[Arron]

I think the building designer we interviewed can handle those issues - in fact he seemed to have a very much better grasp of them then the architect we also interviewed. His portfolio indicates likewise. As I mentioned in the op, we were very happy with him, we just wanted to hear about a few other jobs to reality check the fees before going ahead. You know the ‘get 3 quotes’ thing.

Anyway, offline we have been able to find 3 other couples who have recently built houses and now we’re confident his fees are nothing unusual.

So it’s on to the next step.

That is a sorry house. I think it’s a vanity build. It started as a nice design, then someone wanted to make a statement and ruined it.

This is my favourite, a restrained style - at least it would be if they toned down the garish stairway.

75C16C79-EE83-4433-99B0-A847B4994729.jpeg