Getting a better Energy deal - WHAT A JOKE!

[FenceFurniture]

Now as interesting as this discussion has become (and should continue), none of this has anything to do with excusing the disgusting behaviour of the retailers, and their rubbery discounts. Regardless, they still have to cope with the vagaries of the system, and could still have "fair to all" consistent prices. I'm sure their mathematicians could cope with working something out.

[FenceFurniture]

This one Ev?
Pumped hydro storage 'could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

This explains Pumped Hydro pretty well:
Pumped Hydro: Australia's energy future? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

This is excellent - explains the state of things very clearly:
4 Corners "Power Failure" from last May:
Power Failure - Four Corners

Chris, you will be very interested at 41.30 (power sharing)

[woodPixel]

Yes, that was it.

wind, hydro, solar, wave, thermal, batteries = The future.

coal = death, cancer, poison and pollution.

[fletty]

WRT smart meters, I don't quite understand how a retailer can reach out and shut off one particular appliance during a power pre-crisis. For example, in this 1920 house.......

As SWK says in a later post, they are not current standard appliances BUT, due to requirements to sell into markets such as California and (from memory) Oregon and several European countries, many appliances already have the necessary internal switching but we aren't aware of its existence! To use 'smart metering' and 'smart domestic networks' we have to stop thinking in current paradigms. I was heavily involved in a global smart grid project which will produce some fantastic results for humankind but ALL of the clever development work was NOT technical because ALL of the necessary technology already exists. The clever work was in human reactions and interfaces. There is a fantastic project currently being built in Stockholm (and I tried unsuccessfully to get it considered for Sydney's Barrangaroo project as well) and I could rave on for hours about it....... but won't here!
The best way I can illustrate it and stay within the theme of this post, is to describe a project carried out here in Western Sydney. A batch of air conditioners was modified by the manufacturer (although I still think that all they did was turn on the feature already hidden inside the unit) and these units were installed in (from memory) 200 homes in the 'hot belt' of Western Sydney. During a hot spell, the network provider could selectively turn off (and on!) the compressor and/or fan. In that way, when the compressor was turned off for 10 minutes per hour, and the fans left on, no customer reported the heat (nor discomfort!) increasing but the peak load on the network was reduced substantially. The key numbers behind this trial are that 92% of Sydney homes have air conditioners AND 27% of the network exists ONLY for peak loads. So IF all of Sydney's air conditioners could have their compressors turned off on rotation for 10 minutes per hour, then this 27% of the network could handle future population growth and not just sit there waiting for about 20 hot days per year? Another use of smart meters relates to my earlier comment about base load generators needing to have a flat load profile. To achieve this, before leaving home, you could load the washing machine and clothes dryer and go to work. The network provider, or even the generator, could see the total network load dropping at sometime during the day (usually between 10 and 11 am) and then remotely start all of the washing machines and especially, the clothes dryers, to even out the load on the network. In this way, the customer would be rewarded by having a lower tariff and the generator would lower the cost of generation resulting from operating at suboptimal loads.
If you want to see where this can lead, get me to tell you about the Stockholm Royal Docks project but make sure you have enough beer and food on hand for a 3 hour discussion on what can really happen IF the networks are able to do what CURRENT technology already allows us to do.
I will probably have more time than expected to write more about this soon because today's doctors visit might mean an operation on my hand and NO WOODWORK for 3 weeks
fletty

[FenceFurniture]

I will probably have more time than expected to write more about this soon because today's doctors visit might mean an operation on my hand and NO WOODWORK for 3 weeks

Oh dear - the dislocated fingers were not in fact dislocated after all?

[fletty]

Oh dear - the dislocated fingers were not in fact dislocated after all?

They were definitely dislocated ( I put them back in ) but there appears to be ligament damage

While I was writing my last epistle there were a lot of other interesting points made and they are being made much faster than I can read, let alone reply.
One thing however I must comment on is to caution against using the terms "clean" and "dirty" power. For example, France draws 70+% of its power from nuclear and claims it as clean power. Most green leaning pundits in Australia call that "dirty"? At the recent Copenhagen Conference, Denmark justifiable and proudly advised that they are 100% "clean" and renewable BUT, when the wind doesn't blow, they flick the BIG SWITCH and join the European network that is (from memory again) 22% nuclear? Pumped storage in Australia WAS claimed as green and "clean" and some retail customers even paid more for it BUT, as noted in epistle 1, at the end of the day, power was bought from the cheapest generator, and therefore most likely coal fired, to pump the water back up again!
I have filed some links 'somewhere safe' that are relevant to this I'll see if I can find them and post.
fletty

[fletty]

Here it is...

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/worldwide-electricity-prices-how-does-australia-compare/ii

fletty

[FenceFurniture]

Here it is...

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/worldwide-electricity-prices-how-does-australia-compare/ii

Not...quite... but it does yield an amusing message

[fletty]

Hmmmm, try this one


Worldwide electricity prices: How does Australia compare?

[FenceFurniture]

Goodo. The original link just needs the /ii chopped off the end.

[woodPixel]

20.4 cents per kWh is what we pay.

hmmm. Sounds optimistic to me.

IIRC my dad said he was paying 70 odd. He is near Bermagui.

i don't think Ff was complaining about 20 cents!

[FenceFurniture]

i don't think Ff was complaining about 20 cents!

Indeed not - just the tricky dodgy way they get to it.

[FenceFurniture]

This is also a good report from 2014:
Power to the People - Four Corners

[fletty]

20.4 cents per kWh is what we pay.

hmmm. Sounds optimistic to me.

IIRC my dad said he was paying 70 odd. He is near Bermagui.

i don't think Ff was complaining about 20 cents!

Dont forget that the table is for 2014?

[Bushmiller]

I trot out with monotonous regularity a chorous of all power generation methods have some fundamental flaw. Hydro-electric power is no exception. The ecology downstream of the dam tends to suffer. Nothing comes for nothing.

I don't know he breakdown for Hydro stations that have the ability to pump water back up to the dam but certainly they can't all do this. My impression is that it only the larger installations. The primary use of hydro power is instant response in times of crisis or high demand.

Incidentally, this is the largest Hydro scheme in the world on the Brazilian/ Paraguayan border. Keep clicking the next page tab for more information.

ITAIPU - largest power plant on Earth - 12 600 MW of Hydro Power

There is a line down the middle of the turbine hall with nine machines on one side and nine on the other between the two countries. Interesting statistic is that they can generate full power for 44 days if there is no rain. They have a really big lake!

Regards
Paul