Owner Building - YES or NO?

[Cliff Rogers]

...unfortunately you will come across tradies like ozwinner, who will not want to work with you and who will rip you off, sorry oz but its people like you that give other tradies a bad name......

Nope, I don't agree with that.... I'm a computer tech & I also have a bias against certain 'customers' 'cos they are just 'not worth the hassle.'

Just 'cos you 'charge a lot' doesn't give the trade a bad name, if you do the job right.

If you do a crap job & charge anything at all, you give the trade a bad name.

I like the old sign that says....
"Workshop rates"
$10/hour.
$20/hour if you want to watch.
$50/hour if you want to watch & ask questions.
$100/hour if you want to do it yourself.

[Greolt]

unfortunately you will come across tradies like ozwinner, who will not want to work with you and who will rip you off, sorry oz but its people like you that give other tradies a bad name.

Youv'e got the wrong idea Dan.

The reason I and others like me have that attitude is we have worked for owner builders
on many occasions and each time we have said to ourselves
when finnished "I won't make that mistake again - all I did was lose money"

We can be slow learners

[Dan_574]

Why rip owner builders off though by charging double its wrong. Im not saying all tradies are ripping people off and I know owner builders do get charged more due to it being a one off but to charge someone double cause they are an owner builder is wrong. Too many times tradies dont set down in concrete what it is the customer is getting. I know there been horror stories with owner builders but there are just as many stories about bad tradies.
Greolt I just gotta ask why did you lose money?
Im sorry oz if I singled you out but to say that you double a price cause someone is an owner builder is wrong, I think tradies see OB as cash cow

[Cliff Rogers]

I think that maybe owner builders give owner builders a bad name.

[Pete J]

Doubtless what the tradies are saying is true in their experience. It is a long while now since I owner-built in Sydney and maybe things have changed dramatically.

My experience however was positive, except for the drivel told to me by the plasterboard fixer. All the other trades did good work, were easy to get on with and in the main turned up at approximately the time they said they would.

It required a LOT of planning and organisation and I visited the site twice a day - which site was about 25 K from work. Planning ahead, having a schedule, working with estimating guides early on, and adjusting the schedule to take account of the occasional delay all take time, as does keeping in touch with suppliers and tradies and keeping an eye on the work. The main trouble is there are plenty of things that you don't necessarily know the ins and outs of - things like exactly where flashing should go and how far it should extend etc.

I learned a lot, grew in confidence as the job proceeded, and took advice from all over the place.

Having read some of the posts here, maybe I was lucky or maybe times have changed.

All in all, building is not rocket science. Be prepared for some hassles, but don't die wondering.

Regards

[Greolt]

....... I think tradies see OB as cash cow

Just the opposite Dan. Not worth it. Better money elsewhere.

There is plenty of work out there with builders who know what there doing, know what they want and know how much it costs.

I refer back to my original post. Lots of people do it very successfully and I think that is great but there are many more who should not attempt it.

If rules were made to stop people from owner building I would be one who would strongly object.

Greolt

[Gaza]

some OB are total idots, we did a job for one that was building a 2.5million house, the B****H ripped of all the sub trades, we are out of pocket over $35K formworker $15K Bricklayer ETC... Now we have to go legal root which will cost us more $$. The grounds for deduction are total Bull, thats why OB get charged more.

Not to say all builders are ok but the ones that have been around for a few years are the ones to go for in the long run whats say an extra 15k to have a builder do it and a complete guarntee for a 7 yr period, plus the bank will lend another 10% if you have a builder.

[silentC]

The main reason that tradies don't want to work for owner builders is because they don't like having the owner on site.

Why you ask? Spend a bit of time on some else's building site and you'll see what I mean.

You have to watch these guys like a hawk because they'll get away with anything if they can. Builders turn a blind eye but owners freak out. Very unpleasant for the poor little tradesman.

You know I'm right

I'll tell you in a couple of months whether I think it's worth it. I've done the O/B thing before but it was a totally different situation. If you can get someone who has built before to help you out, it will make your life a lot easier. They'll know what needs to be organised when. You need a decent chippy and if they are half decent, they'll be able to run the job for you. Getting a builder to do it under your O/B permit is another alternative.

Never listen to brickies, they complain about everything. Apparently it's the lime

[Auspiciousdna]

I too don't like working with these people either, who think they know more than they do, and often look for way to cut cost; like whinning about anything hoping for a discount.

[silentC]

The list of trades people not to use is growing longer and longer

[ThePope]

It required a LOT of planning and organisation and I visited the site twice a day - which site was about 25 K from work. Planning ahead, having a schedule, working with estimating guides early on, and adjusting the schedule to take account of the occasional delay all take time, as does keeping in touch with suppliers and tradies and keeping an eye on the work. The main trouble is there are plenty of things that you don't necessarily know the ins and outs of - things like exactly where flashing should go and how far it should extend etc.

If you can follow Pete's advice you're a good way towards making it easier on yourself and all who work on the job Bin J. What drives me round the bend working for owner builders is them not knowing what they want ahead of time, constant changes ect.

As with some of the others here I've had nightmares on some jobs but others have gone perfectly well too, so I don't tar all with the same brush.
Of course shop around for prices from the various trades, you'll definately find not all charging double

ps: are you in Cooma ?

[boban]

My ethnic background meant I grew up with people in the building industry, including my family. This made owner building a lot easier for my family and friends.

I hear what the guys say about pricing on many of the materials. I get $900 bricks for $600 and so forth, but the trades dont discount their prices except when they work on my own house. But I know what they're worth. Its not a secret though, all you have to do is keep asking around.

Tradeconnect.com.au is a good place to start when pricing materials. The comparisons I've done dont put me in that much better a position on most items.

I hear what silent is saying about the tradies not liking people watching them and its so true. Try telling them to fix a mistake and be ready for an argument. But stay firm, they all make mistakes because their human. Just like my plumber who fit 18 shower/bath mixers upside down. After arguing with me during the rough in, he spent 2 days ripping off 4 tiles around each mixer and doing what I told him to do initially. Im no plumber but I know how to read instructions.

Let me put it this way, if you want a house that looks like a project home with standard fittings, then dont owner build. You want something unique with non standard fittings then do it yourself if you have time on your side.

I dont think you can avoid HOW by engaging a builder after the fact. Read the Act (NSW). You can get around the Council by doing it but its not legal for the builder in most instances.

How ascertive you are depends on many factors. If you know your right, then dont back down because you will be left with the defect. I can get tradesmen back, but most OBs have a hell of time.

BTW I know an excellent builder in Canberra if you would like his details, I can pass them on to you. He is also an exceptionally generous and honest person.

DONT LET THESE GUYS PUT YOU OFF. JUST BE PREPARED FOR SOME HARD WORK AND DISSAPPOINTMENTS ALONG THE WAY.

[silentC]

Here's a bit of a log of the problems I've had so far, just by way of illustration:

1. Dug all the trenches for the strip footings, then placed the trench mesh. The next day it rained all day and filled the trenches with water and silt. Steel had to be pulled out in places and trenches cleaned out. Lost a day and about $1,000 for labour and the extra concrete (because the sides of the trenches collapsed a bit and now needed more concrete to fill).

2. Poured the footings, then had the surveyors pin the footings (they mark out all the external corners so the bricky, poor hapless fellow, has something to follow). Two footings were about 200mm off. Ran through the options, including digging another trench alongside and pouring another footing. Decided to cantilever the floor instead.

3. Bricky starts to lay walls and discovers some of the footings are quite badly out of level. More bricks, more mortar, more grumbling. Concretor's name is now mud. Docked him $500.

4. Looking at window quotes, choosing between two suppliers only to discover that one supplier has gone ahead and ordered windows because our 'project manager' has told him that he's got the job. Turns out to be cheaper by $1,500 so we go with him, however I would have joyfully told him where to stick his windows otherwise.

5. Bricky and chippy are from Victoria and 'they do things differently down there'. Constant disputes between project manager and the other two over how things should be done, requiring me to step in. Plumber also gets involved. Can't tell him to p' off because he's my Dad.

6. Meanwhile, shed slab is delayed by rain and then the concretor decides to slip in another job. Nervously watch the weather on the day it's due to be poured. Every time it rains, site is inaccessible for 2 or 3 days because of the clay. It stays fine and slab is poured.

7. Start building shed. Bits missing. Bugger, run up to shed supplier to get them. More building, more things missing. Currently waiting for 2 roofing sheets to finish the roof, also discovered barge cap is missing.

8. We put a sweeping bend in the shed slab for the power. I told sparky to wire for 3 phase but the bend we put in is too small to take the cables (my fault). Now he has to drill holes in the slab edge.

That's after 3 weeks. Who says it's not fun??

[ThePope]

all sounds very much normal to me silentC

btw: who did the setout for the footings

[silentC]

Project manager and his chippy mate. If I was to do it again, I would get the surveyors to put a stake at each corner then run a string line and lime the all trenches. Tell the backhoe to keep the line in the middle of his bucket and Bob's your uncle. Cost a little bit more but surveyors rarely make mistakes.

The house has a very complicated footprint and the site slopes, so it's not all that surprising. I'm just annoyed with myself because I had a nagging feeling that I should go out and run the tape over it but other things got in the way. I've learnt my lesson. No more concrete will be poured until I've checked the formwork.