Hard-wearing finish - Shellac?

[Ben Wheeler]

Hi All,

I'm making some children's tables and chairs, and am looking for a finish to use. My favourite finish to use so far is Osmo Raw Transparent (for light-coloured timber) as it leaves a matte finish that feels lovely and is very similar in appearance to the raw material, which is great if you're into that sort of thing. However, I don't think it'll be anywhere near hard enough for this job.

Based on my reading I'm gravitating towards uBeaut white shellac or hard shellac. Here are my priorities in order:

1) Toughness (tables used for drawing etc)
2) Preference for matte to satin finish - achievable with shellac?
3) Speed of application

The material in question is birch ply.

Thanks for any thoughts!

Ben

[Christos]

I have used the hard shellac on a few small pieces. I would say that it needs to be thinned down a little as I applied with a rag. The pieces that I made were turned on the lathe and not subject to the abuse of a kids drawing table. If it were me then I would use the hard shellac as I think this was designed /made for hard wearing flat surfaces.

[brit]

I made the same for my grandchildren 6 yrs ago and it is still fine . I used a water base 2 pack satin floor finish and have also used water based exterior clear with success.Shellac whilst is my favourite would not be suitable other than a sealer. regards brit

[justonething]

I would think shellac could be a suitable finish for kids furniture with one proviso. It is not hard wearing finish like epoxy would be but its a finish that is easy to rejuvenate or recoat. The idea is that as soon as the kids have done the damage, you can easily put a few coats of shellac on it, seamlessly blending in with the previous coats, because the previous coats of shellac is partly dissolved with the application of a new finish. I would use ordinary shellac rather than hard cross-linked shellac. Use the Paul sellers method, brush it on, cut it and polish it. Its beautiful with deep penetrating sheen. You can do the same on an already finished piece.

[Ubernoob]

Are the pieces being sold? People that are prepared to pay for locally made stuff can be a bit odd, shellac isn't vegan friendly, epoxy has too many VOCs etc etc.

I'm yet to use hard shellac but I'd really like to try it. How many coats would you need to stop a pen nib denting birch ply? I would have thought the only thing to do that would be an epoxy coat, I'm pretty new to finishing though, I wax everything because I am lazy.

[Ben Wheeler]

Thanks for all your thoughts. The pieces will be sold, so low/no maintenance would be ideal. I haven't looked into epoxy coating before, so will check that out.

[ubeaut]

I would think shellac could be a suitable finish for kids furniture with one proviso. It is not hard wearing finish like epoxy would be

Herd Shellac differs dramatically from ordinary shellac in that it's hardened and way more hard to damage like regular shellac. It os also easier to use than an epoxy.

It hardness as similar to that of laminex/formica as the hardener is melamine based.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

[derekcohen]

Hi Neil

What is the Hard Shellac like against UV? Does it aid any in preventing colour changes?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ubeaut]

Hi Derek

I did tests some years ago with a number of for the best UV inhibitors available at the time, with the thought of incorporating the best into some of our finishes. Test was done on Australian Cedar board left outside in the sunlight and in every single test section the timber darkened rather dramatically within a week, way, way worse in month.

Decided back then trying to stop colour change in timber due to UV was basically a waste of time. One of the few finishes back then that seemed to work was a product made by Sikens for exterior timber. The timber did darken and go grey over time, but..... Recoated down the track wehen the timber looked really bad would magically bring the timber back to almost exactly what it was originally. A friend of mine did his house with the stuff and when he redid it some 5 years later it looked like he had replaced the old greyed boards with newly cut timber.

Have never done any tests specifically with the Hard Shellac but I would be really surprised if it stopped UV colour damage. Not sure how it will stand up to UV as a finish either. Theoretically it shouldn't crack or craze but it's not meant for outdoor use, so that shouldn't matter.

Have had a couple of people who fit out restaurants, cafe's, etc that have been using it on tables and chairs for around 10 years now and they have never had to redo any the way they have when finished with poly and other commercial finishes that tend to go a bit rubbery and sticky after lots of wiping down with commercial cleaning products, etc.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

[derekcohen]

Hi Neil

Thanks for the information.

I should have been more specific. I was not thinking about timber left outside - I know about and use Sikkens on Western Red Cedar cladding, and it does a decent job in WA sun (nothing is impervious to WA sun, unfortunately). I was really thinking about how some timber changes colour when in contact with sunlight, which may stream in through windows, or even just reflected light over a period of years.

An example: I recently completed a USA Hard Maple kitchen at home. The timber has a reputation of darkening over time, and more so if in direct sunlight. When freshly planed, the timber is very light in colour. My research came up with the best non-colouring and durable finish as a water-based poly. I used General Finishes over 2 thin coats of Ubeaut white shellac (as a sealer and to add a touch of amber for warmth). The combined finish was excellent. Now I wait to see if it lasts.

2 rubbed coats of White Shellac and 5 hand rubbed coats of GF water-based poly ...



The kitchen aside, there are pieces of furniture I build where I would like the colour to remain constant: Jarrah, WA Sheoak, for example. They are seem to get darker over the years after an oil finish (well, the oil darkens it to start, but it gets darker as well). I am not sure if this is the finish, or the timber.

It was in this context I asked about Hard Shellac.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ubeaut]

I believe oxidisation of timber from the air also helps to darken it.

I have some Hard Rock Maple used for demo when we first made the Hard Shellac and it is still almost the original colour it was when first applied some 10 years ago. However it is only out in the light for shows, exhibitions, demonstrations, etc. so probably only seen the light of day for a total time of around 180 days give or take a few. Chucked in a box along with a heap of other pieces used for demo's, etc. So not really looked after.

I have * Shellawax on a couple of clocks that were made some 18-19 years ago they were also Hard Rock and they have kept almost their original colour with just the slightest bit of honey colour. Not quite as dark as what's in your photo.

* Shellawax is based on Hard Shellac so should be similar result as using Hard Shellac in it's own right.

Hasn't stopped Osage Orange from looking like Blackwood so who knows.

Just as an aside: I have a bit of a thing about using not compatible products in a finish like shellac and water based poly. or Hard shellac over french polish or over poly, etc.

Problem being the they may move at different rates causing cracking or crazing of the surface down the track.

I have seen a shellacked table top which had been finished with a couple of coats where the entire Poly finish completely delaminated into a massive bubble when it was left in direct sunlight for a few hours. Was in a dining room at the time.

Hope this is once again of some help.

[Ben Wheeler]

Thanks again for the great info! I've spent the last couple of days going down an epoxy fact-finding mission, not realising there were exciting replies to the thread. I shall avail myself of some hard shellac tomorrow for testing purposes.

Cheers!

Ben

[Ben Wheeler]

I guess I'll add on to my own thread here with some questions now that I've started experimenting with the Hard Shellac. I'm brushing it on at this point - keen to try a rubber at some point (I bought Neil's book too!) but that can probably wait.

Here are my questions: (sorry, I've probably exceeded my question limit)

- I'm using a 50:50 mix with DNA, which is easy to apply, but seems very thin. Not sure how this relates to a cut of shellac mixed yourself. Does this sound right, or should I be going thicker? If not, any idea on a number of coats that would be appropriate for a nice durable finish once the crosslinking is complete? Should I be judging it by appearance?

- Speaking of appearance, what's the difference in result between brushing & using a rubber? I keep seeing references to a high gloss finish from a rubber, which is not what I'm after. Would one or the other method be notably quicker in building up a finish?

- Pre-finishing! This should probably be a separate topic. Anyway, I have a project that consists of plywood parts butt joined with dominos. Ideally, the parts would be pre-finished, but I'm wondering if the finish buildup would be thick enough to interfere with the strength of the glue joins?

And a side question if Neil reads this - I bought my Hard Shellac from a shop whose stock was all out of date. (They discounted it, so I bought it anyway to try out). Are there particular places to buy in-date stock?

Whew! Thanks for any thoughts.

Ben

[homey]

Ben,

i'm a big fan of hard shellac for boxes. My answers would be:

50/50 hard shellac and industrial metho looks thin but its what I use and I have no problems with the results. If possible, buy 100% industrial metho as the stuff harware stores often carry has some water in it - a small percentage but still better off without it as it reduces the chance of cloudiness in the finish.

Metho sucks moisture out of the air so avoid old bottles of meths you've had on the shelf for ages. Also avoid using shellac in humid conditions.

Number of coats? Brushing is not my norm so can't add anything useful here. However, using a rubber I simply judge it by when it looks the way I want it.

Shellac is naturally glossy so if you dont want a gloss finish cut it back with a fine abrasive such as Micromesh or use fine steel wool (my preference is Rustins 0000+ from Timbecon). Others may have better methods.

I would not put shellac or any other finish on surfaces that are to take glue. Mask them off.

I may have been to the same store. They had more than ten bottles of HS, every one at least 6 months out of use by date. I would not use shellac that far past its use by date when fresh is available. Last Friday I ordered some from Carbatec and it was delivered this morning. They have a no cost shipping deal on if you hurry. Use by date on the bottle I received today is September 2018.

Brian

[Ben Wheeler]

Thanks very much for the reply, Brian - lots of great info. I appreciate it.

Ben