How do I eliminate persistant brush marks in Wattyl water based Estapol ?

[Arron]

Harry, think of me in the coming month when I plan to finish the kitchen doors I have been building, working in the early morning, trying to beat the summer heat of Perth, but expecting it will be about 25 degrees by 8:00 a.m. I am planning on spraying the finish. Will this work? I hope so, otherwise I shall have to reconsider the finish for water-based to oil-based, or wait 4 or 5 months.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Spraying a water based product over those surfaces in Perth summer - will it work? Depends on your definition of 'work' - but really don't expect much. You could swap to oil but the long drying time will attract every bit of dust and flying insect.

I know I always come back to it, but spraying a precatalysed lacquer product would be you best choice. Polyurethanes probably the worst.

[harry wall]

Update....
I finally tried the tabletop (1mx2m). Started at 0645 hrs, humidity 65%, 17 degrees C, added about 20% Floetrol, added about 5% water, managed to get the whole top done in 12 minutes and in three separate sections (trying to maintain a wet edge). The longest time between joining one wet edge to another was probably about 4 minutes.
Result?????
Disaster! Brush marks and overlap marks.
So I've had enough of this crappy product.
I'll use the rest of the can but only on small pieces - never a tabletop again.
I've left the tabletop as is and I'll use it to test how rugged (or not) the water based Estapol is on a dining table. I guess the end result is that I'll sand it off and use a different product.
I might also try one of the home made brews (turps, linseed oil, polyurethane) as a wipe on. Lots of research required unfortunately.
Hmmmm, unless someone simply has THE answer.
I'm looking for a clear (not yellowing), tough finish for table and bench tops that protects and preserves the natural colour of the timber it's coating. Oh, and something that can be applied by brush or roller rather than spraying.

[Chris Parks]

Update....
I'm looking for a clear (not yellowing), tough finish for table and bench tops

Not trying to be a spoil sport but I don't think it exists, the manufacturers might say it and promise it but I have yet to see it. The room I did the pine panelling on is basically underground with only two windows and anything I tried there eventually went yellow.

[derekcohen]

Harry, have you tried spraying the finish?

I am about to use one of these units below. They are cheap, but I have obtained a decent finish in the past with car paint. I've yet to see how it goes with a water-based poly (I will be using General Finishes - just waiting on delivery of the spray unit).

Product Details - Preval Portable Spray Unit

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

Not trying to be a spoil sport but I don't think it exists, the manufacturers might say it and promise it but I have yet to see it. The room I did the pine panelling on is basically underground with only two windows and anything I tried there eventually went yellow.

What about Ubeaut White Shellac? I have used it on drawer sides and it remained colourless. But how durable will it be when liquids are spilled over it or wiped with detergent?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Arron]

Hmmmm, unless someone simply has THE answer.
I'm looking for a clear (not yellowing), tough finish for table and bench tops that protects and preserves the natural colour of the timber it's coating. Oh, and something that can be applied by brush or roller rather than spraying.

Wattyl 7008 is, from my experience, as close as you will get if you won't spray.

Cheers
Arron

[Chris Parks]

Drawer sides are hidden, tables are exposed to UV. The way I understand it and it was explained to me the UV causes the colour change and you basically need a sunscreen for timber to prevent that. Ideas might have changed as that was about 20 years ago when I was talking to paint technicians about the problem.

[harry wall]

Harry, have you tried spraying the finish?
Product Details - Preval Portable Spray Unit

No I haven't tried spraying but that Preval product looks so handy it might be worth a try Derek.

[derekcohen]

Mine has just arrived in the post. I shall test it this weekend and report back.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[fubar]

sorry to come in late to this but in regards to brushes I purchase from these people direct from the uk https://www.handover.co.uk I buy their mops sizes 8 through to 14 to apply lacquer, oil and water based finishes. They're made with squirrel hair or something similar hold an absolute sh.tload of finish and allow it to flow beautifully. carbatec sell them under the liberon name at an astronomical price so for the cost of one brush I can get 4or more ( depending on size)from the uk delivered.
i haven't tried their other ranges only the mops as they suit the current work I'm doing.

[Dareen]

Having had the same challenge previously, without finding a satisfactory solution, I have followed this thread with interest.
Then today I stumbled on this as a possible solution to your problem.

Ensuring a level finish

This chap has some really good ideas.

Cheers, Fred

[derekcohen]

I gave the Preval a test on the weekend spraying General Finishes water-based poly on very light Hard Maple (from the USA). The reason for the water-based poly was to keep the Maple as white as possible. The reason for General Finishes (and having to import it!) was because it was the only finish that was reviewed highly.

Reviews, however, were not good when the finish was brushed, regardless of the type of brush. Consequently I decided to spray, and the Preval (a refillable spray can) was really the cheapest way I could test this out.

No photos - it is too hard to see differences. I compared wiping an oil (like a danish oil) against the sprayed GF. The oil darkened the wood and it went from white to tan. The water-based GF stayed very light, just a touch darker than the original white.

The sprayed GF settled on the wood and left a motley finish - sort of dimply. However, 30 minutes later it had become flat and look quite matte. There were (obviously) no brush marks. The grain was raised slightly. This was dealt with by a quick rub of a grey 3M pad (very fine), and a second coat applied after an hour.

I plan to use three, possibly four coats on the kitchen doors. The test ended at 2 coats. I can see the potential. The result is flat and the surface is hard. Even at this stage I could not lift the surface with a fingernail.

Now I might look into better spray equipment for the future. Any recommendations for an inexpensive but reliable set up?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Enfield Guy]

Wagner do some good gear in turbine spray guns. Good for general purpose stuff, stains, lacquers, acrylic paint. If you want to use Nitro and the like you will need to spend money on a good gun like an Iwata. Earls do an airless, at least I think it is airless, some like them, I've no experience with them though. Carbatech used to sell them, may still do.

Cheers
Bevan

[ian]

I gave the Preval a test on the weekend spraying General Finishes water-based poly on very light Hard Maple (from the USA). The reason for the water-based poly was to keep the Maple as white as possible. The reason for General Finishes (and having to import it!) was because it was the only finish that was reviewed highly.

I plan to use three, possibly four coats on the kitchen doors. The test ended at 2 coats. I can see the potential. The result is flat and the surface is hard. Even at this stage I could not lift the surface with a fingernail.

Now I might look into better spray equipment for the future. Any recommendations for an inexpensive but reliable set up?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek

a review of posts on the forum suggests that "inexpensive" and "reliable" generally do not go together when in comes to spraying a finish.

General finishes has some advice on their site https://generalfinishes.com/professi...based-finishes

My copy of Jeff Jewitt's Wood Finishes book is getting a little old, but in it he recommends a three-stage turbine for a HVLP system, and cautions that a inexpensive systems "are incapable of delivering a fine, smooth finish with clear varnishes and lacquers, particularly water-based ones."

[Arron]

Derek, your choices are an airless turbine type unit, or a conversion gun.

An airless system is like Graco or Earlex (sorry, spelling ?). I think that, the truth is, without spending a lot of money, they are awful. OK for general painting and mediocre clear finishes as might be required perhaps in trim carpentry, but not for a very fine finish as you might put on high-end furniture.

Don't go near a Wagner - I have 5 (bought 2, given 3), they are all awful.

High end airless units might be excellent, but as no vendor will demo them before purchase then I guess I'll never know.

A conversion gun is basically an hvlp gun attached to an air compressor. That's the way all professional spray outfits and auto refinishers work, which tells you something.

I assume you already have an air compressor. If its 3hp or over then you will be OK for that job. Hiring is an option.

Then you need a gun. I regard the Star guns as the sensible bottom end. Maybe $300 for a good one. There is nothing a Devilbliss or Iwata gun will do that my Stars wont (and yes, I have both). There may be some differences in longevity and perhaps working speed which don't mean anything to me.

Then you need a water filter. A filter is essential but before buying an expensive one try one of those $20 jobs you get in Bunnings. It may be sufficient, it is for me and always has been.

And a regulator, preferred but not essential. One may come with the gun.

So all up that's $350.

Then the next important thing is practice.

I did a post a while back on clear finishing a kitchen with an underpowered compressor and a cheap hvlp gun from Supercheap auto : https://www.woodworkforums.com/f9/com...ainting-186151 . Proves its possible, even if not ideal.