Re-finishing a dining table

[Maxy23]

My mother in law had her beautiful dining room table "repaired" about 5 yrs ago. The butchers sanded it too heavy so that there is a bit of undulation on the top now. Fortunately they left the base/legs alone.

The tops come back with a definite red hue about it while the base is a light to mid brown.

I want to shellac it and I was thinking of liberon lemon shellac??

My concern is that the butchers first stained the sanded wood then applied a clear poly finish. Does anyone have any suspicions as to what will occur when I paint stripper the top back. i.e. will I be stuck with that reddy colour or should I apply some colour to the shellac?


cheers

[Christos]

Firstly welcome to the forum.

My initial thoughts are to try testing a small area on the bottom of the table top. But I am guessing that this was never touched by the last guys who refinished the table.

Normally on a new piece if the legs and table top are the same timber then when you apply the same finish the colour would be close to each other. As you are only looking at refinishing the top and you scrap/sand back to bear timber you will have a bit of a hard time to match the colour. As over time some timber darkens when exposed to sunlight, one good example is Cherry. I am not saying that your table is made out of Cherry just that legs are brownish and the top is red.

If the legs and top are the same timber and they wanted to match the top with the legs but did not then that doesn't sound right.

If they used red stain in the table top that could very well be quite an undertaking to remove.

If it was me I would use a scraper to remove the poly. After that has been removed I would determine if the table top has been stained. Using a clean rag with various thinners dab the surface to see if it transfers to the rag. Do not rub this rag into the wood.

If it has been stained then you need to decide if you want to try to remove or just leave it.

If you leave it you can seal the surface by using shellac.

[Maxy23]

I remember the table from before the motherinlaw (MIL) had it ruined. It had beautiful grain and surface etc though at one end was a blackened iron mark which the MIL had done years before. I figure that is the reason for the oversanding at one end of the table.

When I stripped the existing finish off and scrapped it there was like a thick dark glug. Then I stripped it a second time and wiped it off with OOO steel wool. I got lucky as there is an even coloured finish now either wet with water or dry

I then used Feast & watson sanding sealer which went on fine but was a real cow to remove. The directions for the SS say to use a medium course sandpaper to remove ALL the surface material. Started with 600 wet and dry which took alot off but it was still patchy. So I went down to 280 wet and dry and worked up to 600 which took most of it off. Then had to redo some of the top along the outside edges. A full days hand sanding. Opted for the wet and dry because I am doing it in the loungeroom while the wife is away and she would spot any dust on her return. Actually there was SO much work involved in taking off the first coat I didnt put a second coat of SS on though it really needed it. The table n leaves are about 2.4m long and just over a metre wide. I didnt want to chance using anything courser than 280 wet and dry for fear of then having to sand out any swirls caused by the sandpaper. Several mm had already been sanded off one end of the table by the butchers so that it is obvious when you look at it sideon.

Because of this I want to minimise any sanding at all of the raw wood so will now stain. Should I apply 2 coats of shellac with a mop before going to the rubber with shellac coats.

[Glenn.Visca]

Good luck ! Watching responses to this one with interest!

[Christos]

.....Because of this I want to minimize any sanding at all of the raw wood so will now stain. Should I apply 2 coats of shellac with a mop before going to the rubber with shellac coats.

As you said you have sanded to 600 grit that should be fine for your table.

You have not mention what type of wood the table is made from so take this is just general information. Some wood can blotch when a stain / colour is applied. As an example Pine is notorious for doing this but there are other woods that are also prone to this. I think it is the way the tree grows during the season and the size of the pores but I just cannot remember.

Straight shellac is a great medium to apply as a first coat to prevent the colour from blotching. This acts like a sealer for the open pores and when applying a stain the colour would hopefully be taken up evenly. As you have already applied a sanding sealer might not really be needed, but I am guessing. I will say that shellac will go over a finish and pretty much anything will go over shellac.

I have not used liberon lemon shellac so I cannot comment what this product is like. I have used shellac flakes from Ubeaut(Forum Sponsor) where you make your own finish, gives a slight tinge of amber in my opinion. I have applied this with a brush with one continuous stroke. It might be a little harder for a large table top and you might be tempted to go a little heavy loading up the brush, don't be.

One thing to note with shellac it does not have a good reputation when it comes to wet or heat resistance. For me the jury is still out.

There is a product again from Ubeaut know as hard shellac which I have tried and it is supposed to be water and heat resistances. You can click on the link on the side of the page to get more info.

I know I said it earlier but I think it is worth repeating do a small sample under the table so you will be able to determine if this is going to colour match the legs.

Something that I should have mention in the beginning is did you test the legs with a bit of methylated spirits to see if they were finished with shellac?

[Maxy23]

An auctioneer who looked at it said it was mahogany or Australian cedar. In the family for about 60 years with the only work done to it being the top. So the pedestals are finished in either shellac or varnish?? A lightish browny red colour (I didnt test until i read your post which I have now done and they seem to be shellac as some came off in the rag).

Real concerned about the staining and as suggested will strip back the back of one of the leaves and experiement with shellac alone, and staines. In a perfect world I would prefer to just be able to use the shellac as I am worried about runing the colour with a wrong stain colour.

[Glenn.Visca]

If it's cedar .. Why stain ? Also, perhaps purchase Ubeauts polishing guide ... It's a great reference for this kind of activity.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi Maxy23,

Both Australian Red Cedar and Mahogany (which is in fact many different species all given the same common name) can appear quite red when sanded back but can mellow to a brown with time. An Australian Red Cedar table is more valuable here in Australia than a Mahogany table as ordinary "Brown Furniture" is very out of style in the UK, but Australians still like their cedar (though not as valuable now as during the boom in 1988 and thereabouts).

I have never used lemon shellac as I always purchase and use more traditional brown button shellac to French Polish. the high wax content of this shellac makes it easier to polish as the rubber sticks less - usually not at all (so I do not need oil). I have never used a mop to polish a table top I use the same rubber to "body in" as i do to polish. I make a large flat rubber and use very diluted shellac. Make sure the rubber is not sopping or you will leave lines at the edges of your runs/figure of 8 movements. Make sure each coat is dry before you apply another coat and rub back with fine wet and dry sandpaper (1000 grit) after every few coats.

In the past I was tempted to cheat and use a very fine natural hair brush (such as a Squirrel hair brush that you use for details/carvings etc.) but I have found that the resultant finish is not crystal clear and the image of the wood is obscured to some extent.

UBeaut's Hard shellac does give a beautiful crystal clear finish when applied with a rubber and, once set (cross-linked) is very resistant to spills, liquids and heat such as hot cups. I have found it more challenging than Brown Button in some ways but easier in that it comes ready-made and just has to be diluted to apply. if you use it I recommend that you dilute it 25% shellac and 75% metho (good metho like Diggers with low water content). if you want to see what the finish with it can look like have a look at my thread in the box making forum "River Red Gum and Bluegum box".

If you use ordinary shellac you can still get a very hard wearing surface by waxing it well with a good furniture wax with a high Carnauba wax content - that is what I use to protect antique furniture.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

I forgot to add that if you are able to post photos it helps to receive more appropriate advice.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

This is not a great photo but you can probably see the very different width of the two boards on the extremely patinated top. This table had a hard life and was rescued from a chook shed! 200 years of use has left its marks.

36 Blackwood side table top.JPG

[Maxy23]

I have the polishers handbook and read a few times.

I stripped the reverse of the leaves and applied the magonany feast & watson prooftint dilution and then halfed it and halfed it again with tins of FW colour reducer. Wanting just a tint of red in the brown I added a little reddish prooftint which I now forget its name. I just could not get the colour right. Reading some USA forums they kept mentioning Minwax forums. I googled Minwax in Aus and low and behold the whole product range is available from Masters. I bought a can of the Minwax wood pre-stain conditioner (brush on -wipe off) to prevent any blotchiness and initially a can of Minwax Wood finish English Chestnut (didnt get their mahogany as it looked too dark). Later had second thoughts and swapped the Engish Chestnut for a can of the Red Chestnut which is ligher (there is no mixing with this product though it is an option but I had given up on mixing stain colour). Everything was oil based. After days of consternation re the staining everything went on and off real easy and I am real happy (and I think lucky) with the results, that is a brown colour with a hint of red in it. I let it dry overnight.

When I originally posted I thought I added some JPEGS by dragging and dropping into the post but they didnt come out. I will try that again.

I will take X's advice and rubber on the build coats. I am committed to the Liberon yellow shellac as it cost me $100 for 500g and dont know how much wax it has except to say its not dewaxed. X's post solves my query as to the difference of waxed and dewaxed shellac though.

The first photographs are of it stripped and they progress to a soak coat of paraffin oil.

[Maxy23]

If it's cedar .. Why stain ? Also, perhaps purchase Ubeauts polishing guide ... It's a great reference for this kind of activity.

The top would not match the pedestal legs so I would then have to strip the legs. I love the finish/colour on the legs so am stuck on having to stain.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

From memory (so may be not perfect instructions): To add photos you need to click on "go advanced" rather than just use "Quick Reply" Then scroll down and you will see "Manage Attachments" click on that and it comes up with menus to add photos and once added to insert them inline. The "add files" button searches your computer for image files and lets you choose what you want, once you have selected/chosen, click "upload" then click "insert inline" then "done". That inserts the images in your post.

It is best to reduce the size of your images before uploading. I use Google Picasa and the "export" option at the bottom of its screen. In export select 800 pixels wide for the export and then choose where you want the exported image to go. Picasa does some strange things in placing the smaller sized file so you sometimes have to hunt for it, but the program does a really good job of retaining a lot of image quality even through it shrinks the file significantly.

Hope this helps. There will be better instructions on the forums but this should get you started.

[Maxy23]

Firefox would not let the go advanced window pop up, so went to safari and fiddled for a while trying to get three photo's into the attachment photo drop down (without success), then guessed maybe it only allows one pic, tried to submit one pic only and got the message that at least three characters are required. At that point I gave up and had a cup of tea. So no pics and apologies for that.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Yes, Firefox is great and can be set-up with lots of security features, but they sometimes get in the way. I use Chrome and have security features on it too but it works fine for me with the forums. However, Safari is also my fall back browser.

This problem is probably not you - it is either that I left out a step - or read on below. After select files you select "open" then the files appear on the list, then "upload files" then "insert inline" then "done". There is not a limitation on the number of files, but I seem to remember there is a limitation on what new members can do with images. I am not up with the rules, I'm afraid so I don't know if that is the issue here. If it is, just keep posting as you will soon reach the threshold for full privileges - it is not set too high from memory.