Help me understand these final steps...

[RedShirtGuy]

After sealing, the finish lacquer I use is Mirotone's Microcat PC 3220/30 (PDF link to Data Sheet) which is applied with a spray gun.

The suggestions for a smooth finish, at least for a standard poly finish, is to rub down with #0000 steel wool or 2000 grit W&D then apply wax. The rubbing down with either does leave a smooth surface, but the scratches are clearly visible.

So the questions are:
- Does this rub down method apply to this particular finishing product, which has a high solids content compared to plain ol' poly?
- Is the wax finish supposed to hide the scratches I was getting?
- Are the scratches even supposed to be so visible in the first place?


What I ended up doing, with truly spectacular results, was rubbing down with UBeaut EEE-Ultra Shine and finishing with UBeaut Traditional Wax...both with a months dry finish and with a 24 hr dry finish. (The 24hr finish was the test piece for the steel wool and sandpaper so it got smoothed and resprayed a couple of times before the EEE.) This way took a lot of elbow grease (at least with the EEE) on such a small piece and didn't seem quite "right".

[q9]

My experience using steel wool is...I'd never recommend it. Hard to imagine getting a lot of "scratches" out of #2000 but I would follow that up with some kind of polishing/buffing compound. In Urushi, we use ground up deer antler, or some modern equivalent, and the palm of our hands.

[router]

Pre cat lacquer is a finish in its own right. You seem to be combining two different finishes to the one job. Assuming that the scratches are in the finish and not in the wood, have you tried just waxing with a rag and buffing off? Normally oil is applied with steelwool for penetration reasons whilst poly and lacquer are left alone. Try some alternatives on some scraps but keep trying.

Router

[Wood Collector]

What grit are you sanding up to? When I sand a lacquer finish I use 1200,1500 and maybe if I want a finer finish 2000,3000,4000 and 5000

[Arron]

I take it you are going for a gloss finish. I'll answer that way anyway.

The suggestions for a smooth finish, at least for a standard poly finish, is to rub down with #0000 steel wool or 2000 grit W&D then apply wax. The rubbing down with either does leave a smooth surface, but the scratches are clearly visible.

Nope, that's rubbish advice and the surface will be dull with millions of tiny scratches. Wax will gloss it up but its only hiding the problem.

I've also never understood why people so favour steel wool. Antiquated product.

So the questions are:
- Does this rub down method apply to this particular finishing product, which has a high solids content compared to plain ol' poly?
- Is the wax finish supposed to hide the scratches I was getting?
- Are the scratches even supposed to be so visible in the first place?

Basically, wax has no real place on precat because it only HIDES problems for a short period of time - by filling in those scratches. That's OK if you don't mind reapplying it from time to time, but the beauty of pre-cat is that if used properly it can be one of those once-done-it-stays-done finishes so why misuse it ?

Its like waxing your car. You cant do it just once.

There should be no scratches visible at the end of the buffing process, and therefore nothing to hide.

What I ended up doing, with truly spectacular results, was rubbing down with UBeaut EEE-Ultra Shine and finishing with UBeaut Traditional Wax...both with a months dry finish and with a 24 hr dry finish. (The 24hr finish was the test piece for the steel wool and sandpaper so it got smoothed and resprayed a couple of times before the EEE.) This way took a lot of elbow grease (at least with the EEE) on such a small piece and didn't seem quite "right".

OK, but there are easier ways with minimal elbow grease. What I do with precat depends on how the surface came out off the gun - especially whether it picked up any impurities or dust nibs.

If there are no dust nibs etc, then I just buff over with Meguiars Fine Cut Cleaner. Then I hold the piece up to glancing light to see if any scratches persist. There should be none. Its quite a quick, light buffing so the whole job is done in a couple of minutes. All I really want it to do is drop the plasticy look and give it a smooth mellow gloss.

If there are dust nibs, little marks or scratches, or other issues then what I do is:
-rub with 1200 grit sandpaper. Its important its 1200 grit - its the one auto finishers use because it will never give you scratches you cant remove with the next steps, but is coarse enough to cut projections off cleanly.
-buff with Meguiars Medium cut cleaner. The surface will still be kind of cloudy, which is just very fine scratches.
-then buff with Meguiars Fine Cut Cleaner. No scratches.
-Stand back and admire the finish.

If there are serious marks, scratches etc and I'm not in a position to respray then I do pullover first. Then put it aside for a few days. Then same as above. In this case the sanding will be pretty robust so I try to build up the film surface over the problem area with the pullover.


Meguiars is just an autofinishing compound. I mention it because its the one I use. I'm sure there are many others just as good. The main thing is use a 'professional level' compound which doesn't contain silicone (or is it silicon?). I think most of the consumer level auto-finishing compunds (like the Turtle or Kitten ones) contain silicone, plus they never seem to work very well for reasons I don't undertand. If you are not happy with a finish, you can immediately respray over Meguiars, but not easy with a product that contains silicone.

On the Meguiars labels they say that the product should be used with an auto buffer. I use it with hand rubbing only, so I have never understood why that say that.

It would help a lot if makers like Meguiars were to publish the micron sizes of the abrasives in their products. Unfortunately they don't so I never know how to compare them to w&d papers or to Ultra-shine or other products. I suspect they would just say that because their particles are reducing, its a bit irrelevant anyway.

Standard disclaimer - no connection to Meguiars or any other product used, rather then as a user.

ps. Good to see you are making an effort to seal your work first. Makes big quality difference, doesn't it.

cheers
Arron

[router]

Following on from the previous post and when I want a high gloss finish what I use is pre cat lacquer and I will give the job three four and sometimes up to five coats of lacquer. Once the lacquer is hard (about 3/4 days drying time) start with 800 grit wet and dry going up the grits to 1200 grit. Always using soapy water as a lubricant and then when there are no marks left I then cut the job back with Farecla G3 using water with the G3 and a rotary polisher. With the polisher start 800rpm and go up to 1200 rpm. This gives a very high gloss blemish free finish. It is all about practicing until you get it right.

Keep at it

Router

[Arron]

Yes, I had forgotten about farecla. It's probably an even better product then meguiars.

With G3 I would sand to 1500, and use it dry.

[Arron]

Just rereading this - I think I would like to make one thing clearer.

When I sand any precat finish, the sanding is minimal. If possible the sanding is limited to the immediate area around any imperfection. For example if I notice that a surface has a couple of dust nibs but is otherwise good, then I sand lightly just enough to knock the dust nibs off, which might scarcely touch the surface at all. There is no purpose in giving an all-over sand - you will be just tearing up a good surface and giving yourself unnecessary work.

The surface should be dead smooth off the gun (otherwise either your technique or preparation are substandard) so there is no need to mess with a good surface.

After you have sanded any problem spots, A buff with the Meguiars (or whatever other product you choose) will be all that is needed to deal with both the sanded and unsanded bits simultaneously. The unsanded bits should be the vast majority of the surface, otherwise a respray is what is really needed.

I hope that is clearer.
Cheers
Arron

[RedShirtGuy]

I've been away for a little while, but thank you all so much for your input. Each and every response has given me something to think about and experiment with.

Just as a (post)note:
- What I've been experimenting on are small rail and stile type picture frames (so the cross grain marks, if I'm not careful, show up extra clearly);
- The timber was sanded to 240 before the sealer (2-4 coats);
- Sealer/filler is AWESOME and has been de-nibbed at 320;
- Final finish coats have been in the order of 3-5 (but not de-nibbed except on the 24hr dry test);
- My spray gun is old, pathetic and probably too "generous" for the job (also my technique may leave a little to be desired);
- Given I'm using a 30% gloss mix of finish I don't expect a high gloss right from the gun, but it has gone that way after my cutting/buffing process...which was a total surprise as all I wanted a smooth surface (so obviously I'm no pro in this area);

I'll try a few suggestions over the next few months, on different sized projects, and see how I go.

Thank you all once again