English veneer sanding?

[Old Hutcho]

Hi guys.

I am a metal dude but I have fallen into the woodwork craze half by accident. My granddaughter and I have been buying up old cutlery canteens, refinishing them and turning them into jewellery boxes. So far so good. I have had all solid english oak boxes to work on which really bring out the love of grain and texture to me and her.

Now I have a challenge. One of the girls I work with brought me in an old english cutlery box to restore and re assign. It was made (I am really guessing here) in the mid 20th century. Most of the box is oak, but the top is a veneer quarter pattern (See attached pic of similar identical box but restored).

Before I sand the bloody life right out of it I am after some advice as to how to sand it back to its former glory. The finish (not the timber veneer) is lightly cracked, very faded, but the veneer itself is solid and still well bonded right across the entire surface. So now the questions begin.

How thick would this veneer be?

Do I have to hand sand along all four grains or can I sand the entire surface using a random orbital sander (Lightly of course)?

Should I return it to her and say its too hard? (I only work with her after all.)

regards
Old Hutcho (The novice)box1.jpg

[Toymaker Len]

I am not an expert on this sort of thing but I think you can start by rubbing it very gently with oooo steel wool in the direction of the grain in each section and then buff it with a hard wax rather than the full sand back. I am not a fan of orbital sanders at the best of times and I think the patina and the feel of age is much more valuable than the fresh new look.

[Old Hutcho]

Thanks Len.

I agree about the machine sanders of any description on a job like this.

I have been through that phase and made a decision to do the sand job. I have to work with the woman for a while after all, and she wants it french polished nice and shiny.

I have removed the lid and in the cold light of day I can see that the veneer looks to be reasonably substantial. Maybe 1.5 to 2 mm thick? Perhaps a touch less. Its bonded to a very good quality 4 ply which is as flat as the day it was built.

I have done the steel wool thing, but only with the 000 grade. I might try the heavier grade this arvo when I get home from work. The base timber looks to be very dark so I guess its all part of the adventure isnt it?

Thanks for the input.

regards

Old Hutcho

[q9]

I probably would have tried some of the restorative finishes first...but if you've already started may be a little too late.

I personally would hand sand but you need to be supercareful, you don't really want to get to the wood. As light and as little as possible.

[Old Hutcho]

Thanks mate. I did have a veneer that had a very well glued top and there is no damage to it apart from the surface varnish/shellac/whatever cracking and lifting. I have been VEEERRY gently rubbing the veneer back with some 180 and I have managed to do a quarter without rubbing through the veneer. Heart in mouth stuff though. The veneer is reasonably thick so I will keep at it. I will post a result when I get one.

My next question is. Has anybody successfully sprayed shellac. This is going to be a big, (12 inches by 14 inches) very flat, smooth surface when I finish it, and I am aware that to get a piano finish I am going to have be better than I have been when using the rubbers that I make. I have not managed too bad for an amateur on my previous finishes, but they have been on open grained timbers which havent been filled. The grains have come out beautifully on these pieces. This one will require very minor grain filling. I have spray equipment. I have seen aerosol cans. Do these have a pre determined cut or does that become irrelevant to obtain the right consistency to spray.

regards

Old Hutcho

[q9]

Don't spray it.

Use "dry" rubbers first to seal the thing properly ie not using any oil to lubricate the motion. Lots of coats, light rubbing with 400-800 between...maybe 3rd and 4th coats kind of thing. Build it up until the grain is good and sealed. (Not filled, sealed).

Then start with using a little oil as the lube. As little as possible, and don't over-wet your rubber. You'll need to experiment with your shellac mix a bit, to make sure it isn't too watery and is depositing enough shellac as you rub the piece down. When you get it right, you will see the grain filling. Don't try and do it all at once, and current aussie weather (winter), may not be best but if you have a warm spot for all this have a crack.

Too much moisture, and too cold weather make moisture a problem, and I think maybe also adds to cracking, though that seems to happen mostly from too much oil under the surface. It's worth persisting with.

[Old Hutcho]

Thanks mate for the tips. Always good to get info from someone more experienced in these things. Its appreciated.

regards

Old Hutcho

[Old Hutcho]

Progress!

So far I have rubbed back half of the top. Being vewy vewy careful. Its coming up a treat. I have confirmed in my own barren mind that the veneer is quite thick. The grain is close but very nice and should be beautiful if I take as much care with the polish as I have with the sanding bit. Pretty happy. So far.

regards

Old Hutcho

[Old Hutcho]

Pretty much got the whole thing down to bare timber now. It has a curious mixture of solid timber, of different types and veneer on the lid. Some oak on the front, which I think is English, some fairly straight grained timber on the side which I haven't got a clue about. I am going to stain it one of the red timber stains and then French polish it. I have no doubt some of the finishes will be full and some of them will have the grain highlighted. I am a bit concerned now that the stain will take differently to the different timbers and give the whole thing a comical bits and pieces look. The veneer top, although its back to bare timber is also another concern. So I guess I just suck it and see.

regards

Old Hutcho

ps: Just as an aside, I picked up a Record No 044 plough plane for next to nothing in a junk shop. Its only got 1 blade (1/4") but after a cleanup and a sharpen it works beautifully. Very handy to make trays and boxes I suspect. Very therapeutic little plane to work with.

[Old Hutcho]

Well, got myself some water based mahogany stain and some rosewood coloured Wattyl wood filler and got stuck in. Carefully of course The veneer took the stain beautifully and I am over the moon about it. The oak stained beautifully also and the rest of the timbers went much better than I had expected. (I am a noob after all). Let it all sit for 24 hours, gave it a light rub with the 0000 steel wool and have now applied two coats of shellac. Overall I am really happy with it. Pics when I am finished.

regards

Old Hutcho

[Xanthorrhoeas]

I am rather too late in my response, having been off in the central Australian semi-wilderness having fun.
If your work is veneer on ply you are talking 20th Century items I would think. Yours looks 1940's. Some of those veneers were paper thin so you may have been lucky. The finish was often a cellulose acetate lacquer, not shellac and it crazed like mad once the thinners evaporated. Some of those could be removed without sanding by using lacquer thinners.

[Old Hutcho]

Thanks for the response. I hope central Oz is as beautiful as ever. I am a bit envious.

You are the only one here who has been able to give me more info on what this veneer may consist of. (besides really thin wood that is) I have seen many veneer items with crazing over the years. I sanded the side of the box and the veneer seemed to be fairly thick, just based on observations of the layers of play which it was glued to. I certainly didn't sand it hard but its come up very well. I am encouraged to court disaster a little more and maybe have a go at something else veneered. I had a guess that maybe the thing was from the 30's or 40's but had nothing really to base it on apart from the look of the thing.

regards

Old Hutcho

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Thanks for the response. I hope central Oz is as beautiful as ever. I am a bit envious.
regards

Old Hutcho

Thanks,

Yes, indeed we loved our too short journey there. One of the places that we visited was Arkaroola Resort in the northern Flinders Ranges. A geologist that we met told us that they were the oldest rocks on the surface of the earth at 1.5 billion years old. Many of the metamorphosed rocks sparkled with bright spots in them and on the dry river beds there were rocks that shone like lumps of silver. The plants were really interesting too with species that I had heard about but not knowingly seen, such as Dead Finish, a spiky Acacia. Of course I found some of my namesake genus too - in this case Xanthorrhoea quadrangulata, quite improbably perched in tiny little cracks on the rock faces. I highly recommend a visit to Arkaroola. They have a great bar, good food and accommodation from camping, cheap and cheerful to pretty comfy. I sound like an advert I know (and I have no financial or other connection!) but I was pretty impressed to find the reserve and facilities out there.

Good luck with your further investigation of the veneered furniture from the 20's to the 50's. It is not really my period to collect but there are some wonderful Australian pieces that are quite under appreciated. There are pieces veneered in lovely local timbers like Northern Silky Oak, Queensland Walnut and Queensland Maple (highly figured, superb stuff) and in those interesting geometric patterns. I recommend that you test any degraded finishes with some lacquer thinners and metho before you start to sand as you may be able to have a much easier and safer way to repair any degraded finishes. Re-finishing in shellac is a good idea and there are even the modified hard shellac type of products that Ubeaut sell that make the finishes water resistant and heat resistant if that is needed.

I have attached a photo of a more individual 1940's veneered item (on plywood) to show you what is out there.