Solar panels ....... what are you experiences? What are the good ones?

[FenceFurniture]

With the Al Ion research and the Tesla launch, plus rising power costs, I think this is going to be a big growth area for the foreseeable future.

Yes, absolutely. I kinda think Mike Baird is selling the poles and wires at the right time actually. Baseload supply from renewables might be a considerably into the future, but power to homes and small business will drop away to self sufficiency at a pretty fair pace I'd say. That would mean that the poles and wires would have an ever decreasing return, also at a pretty fair pace. The poles and wires will not only be worth substantially less in 10 years or so, they may not even be saleable.

As a photographer, I can't wait for poles and wires to bugger off.

[Big Shed]

Could we keep this thread on topic please.

[Bob38S]

I had the experience, which I stated in another thread with regards being off grid with water as we had been on tanks for 20+ years. When a developer opened up a section down the road, part of which meant that town water went past my boundary I had to pay the council water fee as "they had provided it and even if I chose not to use it I still had to pay the council's fee".

When, rather than if people go off grid electricity wise I am sure the same method will be used to prop up the system.

[Handyjack]

I had panels installed 2.5 years ago. Main reason for installation was to reduce energy bill which it has done by about $100 a quarter. (Average daily use is 13kwh. Amount produces various from about 2 - 16 kwh a day).
I insisted that company did a physical site inspection before quote. There were a couple of reason for this, one to make sure my switch board was suitable and secondly to make sure the roof and location on the roof was suitable. Some companies will just use a satellite image and then say you need to pay extra for something not seen or your switch board is not suitable and will need replacing. (A friend of mine had installers rock up and say they did not have the right clips for his roof and it would cost extra. He ended up using the same company as me and we both got a small discount.) The only difference between quote and job was the inverter was installed on north facing wall instead of inside the garage.
So far I have not had problems.

My parents have had to replace their inverter.

Somebody I know was having solar installed and the installers went through poly-carbonate panels on back porch and I think also damaged another area of roofing allowing water into the house.

Hope this has been helpful.

[FenceFurniture]

Something that I thought of last night, that sounds viable (not necessarily desirable), is that it could also bring 110v into play for USA sourced power tools. The right inverter would have to be sourced from the USA and imported (should be easy enough). I imagine a solar panel is a solar panel and that it's the inverter that does the voltage work (research would be required for going down that path). Could be a neat solution for those that want to indulge in 110v tools.

[malb]

Something that I thought of last night, that sounds viable (not necessarily desirable), is that it could also bring 110v into play for USA sourced power tools. The right inverter would have to be sourced from the USA and imported (should be easy enough). I imagine a solar panel is a solar panel and that it's the inverter that does the voltage work (research would be required for going down that path). Could be a neat solution for those that want to indulge in 110v tools.

It might work for an off grid system with batteries etc, but won't for a conventional grid connect system of panels and inverter because the inverter would needs access to 110V 60Hz mains to sync to and match voltage with, and to carry away excess power when production exceeds consumption. If the mains sync source is not present, or the voltage or frequency are outside tight limits, the inverter simply shuts down and does nothing. Grid connects always generate as much power as possible from the panel output and inverter efficiency, but need buffering via the grid to absorb excess production, or make up for insufficient production.

For an off grid system or a hybrid system (composite of off grid and grid connect), it would be viable to add a 110V 60 Hz offf grid inverter, but a viable system for 240V 50Hz with 3 days backup capacity for a moderate user is in the order of $30,000 installed, $15K's worth of batteries and $15K's worth of panels, and integrated charge controller/monitoring/inverter. Then you add your back up system, (off peak mains or generator). The issue of adding an extra inverter for say 3KW of 110V 60Hz is that it would be bypassing the monitoring system so the integrated hybrid would not know how much power it had consumed from the batteries and might badly misreport the battery state and cause an unexpected DC low voltage cuttoff .

[FenceFurniture]

Ok, just as well I'm not particularly interested in 110v tools then.

[Greg Ward]

I've been in the battery industry all my life.
There was an electric vehicle association in 1978. I was a member and slept through many a meeting. I remember the Lucas electric vans and electric vehicle conversions for a time were popular......Nearly 40 years on.... we are still waiting for a viable full electric vehicle battery (and vehicle) of reasonable cost.

Lead acid batteries are over 100 years old and still the only cost effective battery, all cars use them for starting, they are great with electric forks as you need counter weight and they don't give off dangerous gases indoors and they are a reasonable means of storing solar power.
Hybrids are not electric vehicles
Ni Cad? sure but expensive
if you wait for the 'tesla' or another couple to provide a viable means of storing solar power...... don't hold your breath. You can't change basic chemistry and rare mineral batteries or exotic couples are just not there.
Will they be? Again......give it another 40 years..... maybe.
Greg

[AlexS]

I remember the Lucas electric vans and electric vehicle conversions

Ah yes, Lucas, Prince of Darkness.

Greg, do you reckon there are likely to be advances in battery management technology rather than batteries in the medium term? It seems to me that one without the other is likely to be pretty useless.

[FenceFurniture]

If you wait for the 'tesla' or another couple to provide a viable means of storing solar power...... don't hold your breath. You can't change basic chemistry and rare mineral batteries or exotic couples are just not there. Will they be? Again......give it another 40 years..... maybe.
Greg

Greg, that's quite at odds with what Musk claims in his launch. Have you watched that presentation? He is basically claiming that the 100 year "Age of lead acid" is over now.

Make no mistake, I understand the limitations of Li ion, but if they don't have the nasty self obsolescence built into them, surely they go more or less as long as lead acids i.e. maybe three years or something). It's the implications of the Alum ion with 1000x projected cycle times over Li ion in conjunction with the powerwall (or similar) that sounds extremely promising. Obviously very early days yet, but at least the development is in the USA where it will not struggle to get funding and therefore decent momentum.

I see new houses being built with them as part of the internal walls.

[Big Shed]

Can't remember how long it took for LiFePO4 batteries to become a commercial reality but it was a long time.

Even now they are still regarded as "new technology" but are slowly getting traction in the market place. Price is still a barrier, a 100ah 4 cell LiFePO4 costs about $700, a 100AH AGM bit under half that.

I would suggest that Alum Ion has at least 10-20 years before it will be commercially available.

I found this bit of info in the Wikipedia article also telling

Challenges

Aluminium-ion batteries have a relatively short shelf life. The combination of heat, rate of charge, and cycling can dramatically decrease energy capacity. When metal ion batteries are fully discharged, they can no longer be recharged. Ionic electrolyte materials are expensive. Like most batteries, they have a far lower energy density than gasoline.^[11]

[FenceFurniture]

Well that may just mean we're stuck with Li ion while they develop through the challenges, or find something else more suitable. The point being that Tesla are deadly serious about their Powerwalls, with a new dedicated factory and all, and battery technology is definitely on the march. They claim putting enough together will give 3 phase (albeit USA 220v) so they must be onto something.

[Greg Ward]

Alex, not really up to date here on management for new couples, but battery management is pretty basic electronic technology that has been around for many many years, discharge testing for capacity, charge cutoff and on voltage etc. and inverters etc are pretty good..... a good brand I think is the secret.

The problem with solar charging and lead acid batteries for power storage in a stand alone home system is that batteries are generally run in a semi discharged state, leading to sulphation.
To maximise life, batteries require an equalising or gassing charge (if wet cell deep cycle or traction type) on a regular basis (suggest each 3 months).

People like SLA batteries as they have no 'free' acid, they are great for boats but in static locations, wet cell batteries will perform just as well as SLA, with equal or greater life and a 100AH battery should be only $250-300+- or so

Regarding the 'factory' to produce new types of batteries..... there are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of battery factories around the world. There is nothing yet available that is a cost effective replacement for lead acid.

There is a limit to rare metals (NSW University has/had been working on a vanadium battery for years, but how much vanadium is there available? Lithium is finite and and rare earths metals for electric motors are limiting factors. Lead is common and lead acid batteries are over 90% recyclable. (I admit there is plenty of aluminium).

A new battery technology to somehow take over the world? (I've already seen one new world battery failure with a sodium sulphur factory in the UK in the 1990's, that never got off the ground as it was not a cost effective alternative); battery costs for new couples will certainly reduce, but whether they can finally match lead acid in cost and be produced in sufficient quantity to do so will be interesting to see
But on my demise (hopefully not for a few years yet), I think I will see that most new cars will remain IC (diesel perhaps) and start with lead acid batteries, that electric cars will remain a high cost alternative and that there will be no new battery couples in household solar applications of any consequence.
Greg

[Evanism]

There was this article: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...m-ion-battery/

Given the cheapness of AlIon, they could build monster reserve battery packs. Good by "baseload" coal burning devils!

[Chris Parks]

Tesla's new battery centre in the US will be a game changer.