Darkening QLD Maple

[John_in_Alice]

Hello

I am sadly a very SLOW worker with wood... and have finally after over a year got to the point where I am doing the finishing of a table, built to match in style and timber a c1930 bureau and set of chairs we bought one holiday.

I got v stuck on the legs, which forum members helped me to recognise as 'spade foot' style, and I got connected with Miko (g'day) in Alice Springs who let me use his bandsaw, and it's all ready to go and get put together and finished.

So style, timber match but colour???

I wanted to use Organo hard burnishing oil, which I am a big fan of because my shed is invariably dusty and that stuffs up final perfect finishes and it is really quick and great, I reckon.

But the spec sheets EXPLICITLY states

STAINING:

This product is a penetrative, clear oil finish and should NOT have other-brands of pigments or colourants added to it.

I need to get the finish substantially darker (see pic)

Some specific questions:

1. The spec sheet sat 'other brands' of pigments... but there don't seem to be any organo brand pigments or stains - ...
Has anyone successfully darkened/stain-based or dye-based organo oil (one post on the forum described a disaster on this?)

2. Does anyone have suggestions of similarly easily applied finishes that have various shades so I can work to match colour?

You can see the colour difference needed in these pics...

Thanks very much.

John



DSC_9834.JPGDSC_9833.jpgDSC_9836.JPGIMG_0173.jpg

[cava]

Like the books in the background.

[Superbunny]

What I did on my Queen Anne lowboy in Qld Maple was to dye it with the sponsors dye using 6:1:10, 6 red to 1 green/black to 10 water mix. It turned the maple a greenish colour but when I put shellac on it with several coats it not only made the figure pop but gave a very similar colour your looking for. Look in my profile in my albums and you will see what I mean. I hope this helps.

SB

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hello

I am sadly a very SLOW worker with wood... and have finally after over a year got to the point where I am doing the finishing of a table, built to match in style and timber a c1930 bureau and set of chairs we bought one holiday.

I got v stuck on the legs, which forum members helped me to recognise as 'spade foot' style, and I got connected with Miko (g'day) in Alice Springs who let me use his bandsaw, and it's all ready to go and get put together and finished.

So style, timber match but colour???

I wanted to use Organo hard burnishing oil, which I am a big fan of because my shed is invariably dusty and that stuffs up final perfect finishes and it is really quick and great, I reckon.

But the spec sheets EXPLICITLY states

STAINING:

This product is a penetrative, clear oil finish and should NOT have other-brands of pigments or colourants added to it.

I need to get the finish substantially darker (see pic)

Some specific questions:

1. The spec sheet sat 'other brands' of pigments... but there don't seem to be any organo brand pigments or stains - ...
Has anyone successfully darkened/stain-based or dye-based organo oil (one post on the forum described a disaster on this?)

2. Does anyone have suggestions of similarly easily applied finishes that have various shades so I can work to match colour?

You can see the colour difference needed in these pics...

Thanks very much.

John



IMG_0173.jpg

Hi John,

Join the club in regards to slowness, but speed is not the end point for most of us, it is quality and enjoyment of what we are doing that counts.

In my opinion the ONLY finish that you could consider using to match a 1920's 1930's piece is shellac - because that was what would have been used on it. A good shellac, French Polish, finish will give you the same lustre and lots of compatibility with all kinds of stains, if you need them.

What I believe I am seeing in your last photo is unstained Qld Maple with a brown shellac finish. If you use brown button shellac on plain timber you should get a very similar effect. The way to test is of course to use an offcut of your timber. Shellac is very easy to use and the brown button shellac (so called because you buy it in flat hard discs about 50 mm diam and 3-4 mm thick) gives the same subtle colour and glow that you see in your piece.

You can buy the buttons from a mob called Shines (somewhere in NSW) they should be on the internet but if you can's find them PM me and I will give you the phone number. I just break up the buttons and dissolve them in 4 litres of Bunnies metho. That gives a raw (dirty) stock solution Filter that through two layers of cheesecloth to get a clean stock solution. Dilute that to 1:4 to start polishing. Fine French Polish is even more diluted but that does take alot of work with a rubber (pad with very dilute solution) to give a perfect finish.

[John_in_Alice]

Hi - thanks very much for these suggestions. I actually thought it might have been shellac, and I made some up and did a couple of coats... then a buff and THEN tried organoil over than. Nup didn't work.

I am seriously unskilled in shelac use... so tips welcome.

I guess my major question with it is how hard wearing is it, and will it work on an everyday-use table??

Ideas very welcome.

Cheers

John

[John_in_Alice]

Like the books in the background.

Happy wife happy life!

[John_in_Alice]

Hi

I sent an email to the organoil people today seeking clarification on things. I got a phone call back within 10 minutes! You can't complain about that... Three cheers for Australian companies that deliver great service.

And three cheers for Ernie.

Basically - don't bother playing around trying to stain/dye the OrganOil burnishing finish. Won't work.

Got some great tips on using the burnishing oil properly and a link to a web site that is a video demo of how to get the best out of it. He was adamant that using 1200 grit paper on the orbital sander was a must for a really good finish and longevity. And I was very happy using 400, so that was a good tip, just there.

So check out:

http://prep-productions.com/prep_videos.html

Still keen for immediate tips on how to use shellac well and whether it'll handle wear and tear...

Cheers

John

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi John,

The easiest way to get some good information on shellac and French Polishing is to contact the forum sponsor U-Beaut. Neil Ellis, the proprietor (and owner of these forums) is an expert and has a publication that tells you a great deal of information and tips. I have no connection and have never met him, but know that they sell both a range of shellacs and the book.

In terms of how well a shellac polish works I can assure you that it is very hard wearing. I have antique furniture with shellac finishes over 150 years old, including our Australian cedar dining table. It even survived my children tipping hot tea and fruit juices on it - you just have to wipe them off promptly. In addition, it is an easily repairable finish.

Hope this helps

David

[John_in_Alice]

Hi John,

The easiest way to get some good information on shellac and French Polishing is to contact the forum sponsor U-Beaut. Neil Ellis, the proprietor (and owner of these forums) is an expert and has a publication that tells you a great deal of information and tips. I have no connection and have never met him, but know that they sell both a range of shellacs and the book.

In terms of how well a shellac polish works I can assure you that it is very hard wearing. I have antique furniture with shellac finishes over 150 years old, including our Australian cedar dining table. It even survived my children tipping hot tea and fruit juices on it - you just have to wipe them off promptly. In addition, it is an easily repairable finish.

Hope this helps

David

Hi David - this is a bit annoying; I drafted a reply to you yesterday, and it's gone missing...

So thanks for this. Great. Their publication is presently not available, according to the website.

What I did do y/day is talk to Robert from Shines (great bloke) who spent quite some time with me talking me through it and looking at options. He reckons even brown /button shellac won't darken it enough. So suggested adding a touch on (F&W) proof tint to the mix, and sneak up to the colour I want. That may well mean I loose the lighter yellowy bits in the grain, in which case I will try out the other suggestion of using an under dye as per supperbunny's suggestion (his pics look GREAT, but maybe a bit too contrasty for me).

Anyway, I will give Robert's suggestion a go. I attach a photo of where I want to get to, and what eight coats of yellow shellac gets me to - hot off the press.

Stay tuned... - and thanks!

John

IMG_2105 (1).jpg

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi John,

Yes, I see what you mean about the colour. In my experience if you applied enough coats to brown button shellac you would get closer to your desired effect but a stain would get you there faster.

I have often repaired antique Australian cedar furniture with pieces of new cedar and new cedar veneer. In most cases the new cedar is much light in colour than the old, dark cedar of the piece. I use the proof tint solvent dyes directly on the cedar before I apply the brown button shellac. One advantage of this technique is that if it looks too dark just rub over with metho until you lighten it to your desired tint. The first coat of shellac does dissolve and lift some of the proof tint, but I have become adept at handling that. I have also used the proof tint directly in the shellac as has been suggested to you. That works well for the quite dark stains but, on cedar, I have found it gives a murky finish compared to staining the timber first. So, it is worth testing your samples, as you are, before you commit yourself.

The latest Australian Wood Review magazine (vol 87) published this month has an article on getting started with French Polishing. It would be worth reading, though i must say that I have never used the grain filling techniques discussed there (using pumice or coloured Plaster of Paris) and believe they are most likely suited to overseas timbers and definitely not to repairing Australian antiques.

good luck

David

[John_in_Alice]

Hi John,

Yes, I see what you mean about the colour. In my experience if you applied enough coats to brown button shellac you would get closer to your desired effect but a stain would get you there faster.

I have often repaired antique Australian cedar furniture with pieces of new cedar and new cedar veneer. In most cases the new cedar is much light in colour than the old, dark cedar of the piece. I use the proof tint solvent dyes directly on the cedar before I apply the brown button shellac. One advantage of this technique is that if it looks too dark just rub over with metho until you lighten it to your desired tint. The first coat of shellac does dissolve and lift some of the proof tint, but I have become adept at handling that. I have also used the proof tint directly in the shellac as has been suggested to you. That works well for the quite dark stains but, on cedar, I have found it gives a murky finish compared to staining the timber first. So, it is worth testing your samples, as you are, before you commit yourself.

The latest Australian Wood Review magazine (vol 87) published this month has an article on getting started with French Polishing. It would be worth reading, though i must say that I have never used the grain filling techniques discussed there (using pumice or coloured Plaster of Paris) and believe they are most likely suited to overseas timbers and definitely not to repairing Australian antiques.

good luck

David

Hi again David - thanks very much for this; I now have two options to try tomorrow... when I finally get into my shed... and I will take photos of both and keep you posted.

Thanks again.

John
and I will see if I can track down the mag!