Water divining

[rustynail]

Apparently when you're given the 'gift' of water divining, you lose your sense of humour

Quite the contrary. I have had many a good laugh at things I find amusing. There has been no indication that our friend was making a joke other than the subject content.
The gift of water divining does not negate ones sense of humour What does negate a sense of humour is some one who is prepared to ridicule that about which they know nothing or at best very little. Who is to say that my responses to this amazing piece of mirth was not just as much tongue in cheek.
Some people seem to have an astounding propensity to jump to conclusions.

[Superbunny]

You know what, I was a Geoengineer in NZ for 10 years and I worked with well drillers over that time. We covered the Canterbury region and I noticed two things, 1. The well drillers had drilled more dry wells that water diviners had said there was water and they did not believe in it and this from a second generation company that had been at it for 40 odd years and 2. where there is plenty of water to be found farmers believed in it but did not if it was hard to find. I had a very interesting conversation with a farmer who had a 300 metre well that was dry and we were both looking at it at the time and it was not the first one he has either. He had spent nearly $1,000,000 on trying to get water on his farm for irrigation back in 1993. He said he would shoot the next water diviner that came onto his property. I also met a diviner with books and newspaper articles about his success, but I noticed he had written them or self promoted himself, so much for independent confirmation of his skill in an area that had more water than you could poke a stick at. In areas where I knew there was water because of all the well logs I had access to and I knew how much and at what depth the water is at, I would say to the farmer, give me a rock and I'll throw it and where it lands drill there. You know what, not one single failure. Randi proved once and for all it is BS with his demo some years ago and that should be the last word on the matter apart from the fact Randi still has his money.

SB

[rustynail]

A person who says there is water and there is none is not a water diviner.
The tests that have been conducted have not been conclusive, other than to prove that unnatural water sauces are, at best, chance. And the vagaries don't end there.
Here is an example; Some years ago I was asked to have a 'look' in a particular paddock. There were three good locations found. One was drilled and good water was forthcoming. The other spots were disregarded.
Some years later I was asked to relocate the other spots. Upon arrival I found the paddock had been deep cultivated very recently. I could not find the other two locations even though I had a fair idea where they had been. In time, I will go back and see what happens
To suggest the tests conducted by Randi to being scientific evidence is incorrect. It would be much more reasonable to refer to them as an attempt at determining the unknown.
It would be funny if the next water diviner that came onto the Kiwi's property was a fairdinkum one.

[Superbunny]

Yep rustynail, and Randi has his money waiting for a real water diviner, funny no one has claimed it. I was always ready to be convinced by a real diviner but out of all the ones I met, I and the well drillers we were left underwhelmed by their evidence but positive of the dry wells they divined. I did notice when in some areas when divining was discussed by a farmer or two, they would tell me of the failed divining attempts that the local diviners never tell you about, funny that. I can assure all if I or the drillers had found any better evidence for divining I would be glad to support it but only if the moon was right, or time of day/year, or the wind was from a certain direction, or I was holding my mouth right.

SB

[Master Splinter]

The thing is that all those failed dowsers confirmed (and demonstrated) that their dowsing ability was working under the test conditions, before commencing the test proper.

What stopped their ability to dowse the minute they were under test protocol?

And it doesn't explain the poor performance of 'in the field' tests, where dowsing shows no better success rate than random chance.

[rustynail]

I have always said, when I fail to find water I will stop divining. I haven't failed yet. But on the strength of what you guys are suggesting it shouldn't be too long now.
I'm afraid you are going to have to come up with a better reason for why the wires cross other than the accusation the operator causes it. I know for a fact, in my case, that is not correct. As stated earlier , I will do my best to prevent the wires moving. But still they do. And low and behold there is water when its drilled!
It don't get much better than that.
Opinions mean nothing. Prizes mean nothing. Man made tests mean nothing. So called diviners mean nothing. Ability and continuity are everything. When that fails, you too are nothing.

[wireliner]

I found a water meter for a friend yesterday. He bought on of those new estate homes you get now days. The landscapers had buried it under dirt and mulch. He had scratched around trying to find it using the other homes as a guide. I found the thing easily. Why they put it halfway up his front yard is beyond me. All the others are on the fence line.

[Master Splinter]

As you two must be the only actual 'real' diviners in the world, again I encourage you to go for the various sceptic prizes posted earlier.

Surely, that's an easy $1.2 million for such proven dowsers as yourselves (adjusted for conversion rates).

Feel free to nominate test conditions that would work for your ability set.

I'll say that again, you are able to nominate test conditions that best show your ability.

If pipes won't work for you, if an open field wont work for you (remember, you will be asked to check that your ability works under test conditions before testing starts), come up with some other testing procedure.

And you'd be able to prove, once and for all, to the whole world, that it works.

[rustynail]

As you two must be the only actual 'real' diviners in the world, again I encourage you to go for the various sceptic prizes posted earlier.

Surely, that's an easy $1.2 million for such proven dowsers as yourselves (adjusted for conversion rates).

Feel free to nominate test conditions that would work for your ability set.

I'll say that again, you are able to nominate test conditions that best show your ability.

If pipes won't work for you, if an open field wont work for you (remember, you will be asked to check that your ability works under test conditions before testing starts), come up with some other testing procedure.

And you'd be able to prove, once and for all, to the whole world, that it works.

A couple of points here; Firstly I do not profess to be one of only two. I have met many successful diviners over the years. I have also met many failures.
Secondly, I am not of the opinion that a ready made, slap up 'test' is going to prove anything, other than the vagaries of such conditions.
Thirdly, I would not be presumptuous enough to say that I would know what was required to set up a suitable 'test.'
To be honest, I'm not interested in Randi's money. I have enough of my own. I do not do what I do for the need to prove to the world that it works. In fact, I rather like the idea of a little bit of mystery in the mix -
helps to keep us humble.
Dont worry, you are not the first to cast doubt on the subject and Im sure you wont be the last. I understand perfectly why anybody unable to get those wires moving would have reason to doubt. But that still doesnt explain why the wires move for others. Many are the doubters I have shown and from those some have been able to do it. Others have not been so fortunate and continue, justifiably, to be of the opinion that its all BS. Like our Kiwi friend.
The way I see it, we are guided by our past experiences. Or at least we should be. I dont need the opinion of Mr Randi anymore than he is in the need of mine (feel free to substitute your own name.) I too am a skeptical person by nature. Im sure that if I was not able to do what I do I would share your veiw. Probably not as dogmatically as I am not a dismissive person. I prefer to keep an open mind. But hey, each to his own.
In all of this, you have never said if you have tried and failed or never tried at all.

[Master Splinter]

So, essentially what you are saying is that:

- the only measure of a water diviner is for a purported water diviner to declare his or her own success at it, and that it is impossible to test divining in a scientific manner.

OR

- every single dowser tested to date (and worldwide, I'm sure that would be many thousands of them) was a fake, and no 'real' diviners have been tested.

Remember, all the tests have buy-in from diviners, saying "Yes, I can accurately divine in test conditions" (and they are then asked to demonstrate their divining before the test begins).

Yet once the test begins, their success rate drops to random chance (and yes, their divining rod still deflects or whatever it is that it does, it's just that it doesn't necessarily correlate with water)

And we have wireliner, who started this thread, declaring his success at finding a newly installed water meter, so surely he'd be able to pass a Dick Smith like test with flying colours.

[rustynail]

So, essentially what you are saying is that:

- the only measure of a water diviner is for a purported water diviner to declare his or her own success at it, and that it is impossible to test divining in a scientific manner.

OR

- every single dowser tested to date (and worldwide, I'm sure that would be many thousands of them) was a fake, and no 'real' diviners have been tested.

Remember, all the tests have buy-in from diviners, saying "Yes, I can accurately divine in test conditions" (and they are then asked to demonstrate their divining before the test begins).

Yet once the test begins, their success rate drops to random chance (and yes, their divining rod still deflects or whatever it is that it does, it's just that it doesn't necessarily correlate with water)

And we have wireliner, who started this thread, declaring his success at finding a newly installed water meter, so surely he'd be able to pass a Dick Smith like test with flying colours.

Not at all. Read the posts and you will see what I am saying. Whether you choose to accept what I have posted as being my stand on the topic is of little interest to me. You are obviously of the opinion that my take on the testing that has been undertaken so far as unsatisfactory is incorrect, inferring that my only reason for declining to undertake the tests is because Im afraid of the results. Well your damn right on that score, but not for the reasons you think.
I draw your attention to my last paragraph in my last post. The answer may well shed some light.

[Master Splinter]

Well, I have to say it is something I have never tried.

But then, I've never:

- tried talking to spirits or angels
- tried seeing Jesus in a vision (or on a piece of toast),
- spoken in tongues while possessed by the holy spirit,
- spelled words on a ouija board,
- tried astral travel (which is a pity, as it might have sufficient leg room for me),
- bent spoons with my mind,
- tried psychic surgery,
- seen a ghost or vampire or space alien (in real life, anyway)
- had cancer that's been cured by ingesting silver, and,
- I've never had my horoscope done by an astrologer and found out that 'OMG it was so true!'

Why? Because all of these share one common element - they all have their very ardent believers, but none of them can provide any empirical proof of what they claim.

All of these are extraordinary claims; as such they require extraordinary proof.

If anything, the only thing that gets proven, time and again, is that people have an almost limitless ability to fool themselves.

Would I believe in dowsing?

Yes, in an instant, if someone could demonstrate that they could actually do it. That's all it takes - proof.

I'm always open to the possibility that dowsing is real phenomenon (just like I am open to the possibility that Nessie is real, and that Bigfoot is stomping around the US of A, probably hand-in-hand with Elvis), but all the available evidence to date indicates against it.

I don't think that requiring proof is a particularly high bar to set when I'm asked to believe in something.

[wireliner]

I tried to register but it won't load. Will you, Master Splinter, find somebody in Adelaide, put a carton of beer on it? Pale Ale is my choice.

[Master Splinter]

What won't load?

[wireliner]

The challenge but it did finally. I'm in... are you? Only a box of beer for you.