Water divining

[Master Splinter]

Similarly to water divining, I've found that when I drop a nut or bolt under my car when I'm working on it, the nut always rolls to the most inaccessible place under the car.*

So again, I encourage any good water diviners to take on the JREF US$1,000,000 challenge - sure, it might be a few weeks solid work to get it all up and running (spread over several months) but there's that million dollars waiting. That'd be about $1.3 million in Australian pesos. Surely that's worth a few months of fiddling around!

If you are worried that artificial test conditions might put you off, you are able to propose your own set of test criteria (remember, they must be testing for something that can be agreed on ahead of time as a clear demonstration). You are quite able to do an open test (where the location of the water is known to all) to confirm that the test conditions will actually cause a positive indication for you.



*Except for those times when it didn't, and I forgot about them, or when it was just hard to reach but not actually most inaccessible but I counted it anyway as my back hurt bending over to pick it up, or I felt that 'rolled all the way over on the other side of the car' counted because of how far I had to walk, or it was actually just behind me but I didn't see it there for ages so that counted as inaccessible too, or it landed in an oil drip making it all yukky and I didn't want to touch it, so that's inaccessible, just in a different way...

[AlexS]

I think BobL has summed it up well.
More than 50 years ago a study was done by the NSW govt. Senior Hydrogeologist into the effectiveness of diviners v hydrogeologists. (OK, I know he's not a completely disinterested party.) He found that, working in their home territory, diviners were able to find water with about the same accuracy as hydrogeologists. However, hydrogeologists were able to achieve a consistently high standard even when working out of their area.

He believed that it was probably due to what BobL calls ideomotor action, and this, to me, seems the most likely cause, apart from a few charlatans out there.

[wireliner]

Similarly to water divining, I've found that when I drop a nut or bolt under my car when I'm working on it, the nut always rolls to the most inaccessible place under the car.*

So again, I encourage any good water diviners to take on the JREF US$1,000,000 challenge - sure, it might be a few weeks solid work to get it all up and running (spread over several months) but there's that million dollars waiting. That'd be about $1.3 million in Australian pesos. Surely that's worth a few months of fiddling around!

If you are worried that artificial test conditions might put you off, you are able to propose your own set of test criteria (remember, they must be testing for something that can be agreed on ahead of time as a clear demonstration). You are quite able to do an open test (where the location of the water is known to all) to confirm that the test conditions will actually cause a positive indication for you.



*Except for those times when it didn't, and I forgot about them, or when it was just hard to reach but not actually most inaccessible but I counted it anyway as my back hurt bending over to pick it up, or I felt that 'rolled all the way over on the other side of the car' counted because of how far I had to walk, or it was actually just behind me but I didn't see it there for ages so that counted as inaccessible too, or it landed in an oil drip making it all yukky and I didn't want to touch it, so that's inaccessible, just in a different way...

For a million bucks, I'll give it a crack. To make it simpler, let me find a water pipeline that is known to you. Much easier.

[Bob38S]

Have read this thread with interest as I am certainly of the skeptic school.

That being said I also tend to have an open mind rather than set ideas and have always been curious.

Long story short, about 30 years ago a mate bought a block of land out in the scrub - no town water. Through relatives, one of the grandmothers was supposed to be able to find water. We went to the block and after about an hour she had marked the "spot", I am thinking this is Bravo Sierra. She, about 75 not out and about 5 foot nothing tall and relatively thin assured us it was correct.

Grandma encouraged us to have a go - nix, nothing, nada. She then took me by my left hand and we held a green forked stick in the free hands horizontally and walked from one side of the block to the other. As we neared the spot the fork started to turn down, when over the spot it was vertical, moving further the forked turned towards us. There is no way the old girl was twisting he fork as I had hold of one side and she the other, I tried to prevent the turning down but only succeeded in stripping the bark off in my hand.

I am at a total loss for an explanation especially as when the spot was drilled some weeks later and there was good water and flow.

Perhaps the whole idea of finding water with forked sticks or wires falls into the "you can't be serious idea" but in this case it worked.

[rustynail]

OK here's another one for you: Freemans Reach NSW renown area for small seams. Usual method for such country is find a cross stream. A stream is divined and direction noted. Divining parallel with the stream another stream, crossing the first is found. The intersection is marked and the drillers start drilling. At about 40 ft water is found but poor flow. The drillers drill on until a second wet seam is reached increasing the flow by over double. Now a usable volume of water. This bore has been in operation for twenty years.
Yeah I know, its all BS but the results are there and we keep having success.
Oh I almost forgot, Little Hartley NSW, A friend bought a block with the intention to build. She asked me to
"look" for water. It was everywhere! In every direction the wires would turn in. It didnt make much sense.
Her husband decided to go to Council to see what he could find out. He was informed the area was a subterranean floating swamp. They sold the block and built elsewhere.
But hey, we're just having ourselves on.
Can I explain it? No, not really. Does it work? Well it does for me. A million bucks? Why, can't they just go out with the diviner, mark the spot, drill the hole and see what comes up, then move to a spot where he got no signal and dig there? Jees, it aint rocket science.

[Master Splinter]

For a million bucks, I'll give it a crack. To make it simpler, let me find a water pipeline that is known to you. Much easier.

You'll find the application form here: http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html

You can find a (partial) list of previous challengers here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...splay.php?f=43

I think they've officially tested about 40 dowsers so far. No claimant has yet managed to even pass the preliminary testing.

Sadly, they didn't test the person who said he could prevent earthquakes, as he required "a clairvoyant, who is real" to predict an earthquake for him to prevent (they were unable to find a real clairvoyant).

If you need assistance with preliminary testing, I'm sure the Australia Skeptics (http://www.skeptics.com.au/) would be only too happy to help. You could even pick up their $100,000 challenge, too! http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/prize/

[BobL]

. . . Can I explain it? No, not really. Does it work? Well it does for me. A million bucks? Why, can't they just go out with the diviner, mark the spot, drill the hole and see what comes up, then move to a spot where he got no signal and dig there? Jees, it aint rocket science.

If we relied on that sort of testing protocol for scientific advancement we'd still be back in the dark ages.

If you want to see the correct way to perform the test read my link to the Dick Smith and the Australian skeptics in my first post in this thread.

If the test is performed in the manner you suggest there will be too many false positive finds.

It's a bit like a witch doctor going into ebola country and pointing out the carriers i.e. there are so many he can't help but get it right.

[rustynail]

If we relied on that sort of testing protocol for scientific advancement we'd still be back in the dark ages.

If you want to see the correct way to perform the test read my link to the Dick Smith and the Australian skeptics in my first post in this thread.

If the test is performed in the manner you suggest there will be too many false positive finds.

It's a bit like a witch doctor going into ebola country and pointing out the carriers i.e. there are so many he can't help but get it right.

Sorry Bob, I dont follow your logic. What I am suggesting is the diviner marks his spot and drill one hole. He then nominates a spot where he gets no signal and drill there. How can two holes produce two many false positive finds.
As for the Dick Smith fiasco, I would never try to divine new water sources, particularly in plastic. I wouldnt even try to find a domestic water supply...Too hit and miss for my liking. If you consider the test set up they used back in 1980 as scientific, you have a very different take on science to me.
By the way, a friend and myself were invited to take part, we declined for the reasons above.
To say that like the witch doctor, you cant miss. Well thats not right either, otherwise it wouldnt matter where you drilled you would get water.
Kurmond NSW, Japanese interests set up a fish farm for eels. They built two large sheds and had a bore sunk in what was considered by hydro's as the most likely location, about 200m from the shed. No water.
The manager asked me to have a "look." The wires turned 5m from the back of the shed. The resulting bore operated successfully for about two years, until they tried to pull the pump with a dozer, snapped the wire which shot down the hole upon the release of tension and formed a "rat nest" on top of the pump.
The list goes on.
Science my hat.

[wireliner]

I drilled a backyard bore that had water but it was in sand. I chased it down to find limestone but struck out. I pulled the pin at 75m. I got the wires out and found a stream the other side of the block, 18m away. Limestone, clean water, bore drilled to 36m.

[rustynail]

Out of all the drillers I know, I can only think of one company that doesnt carry a set of wires in the truck.
This was the mob that failed to find water at the Sofala site. Just saying.

[Bob38S]

I think the Mythbusters would have to go with "Plausible" rather than "Proven or Busted".

[rustynail]

My FIL was a surveyor on the Snowy Mtn Scheme. He was German and a lover of all things scientific. Upon the establishment of one of the semi permanent camps it was decided to put a bore down. The Hydro's, of which there were any number, gave an opinion. But old Mac, one of the chain men reckoned they were dreaming and picked a spot about 100yrds away. The gentlemen with the uni degrees site was tried first. No water. They then laughingly turned to old Mac and said,''You still reckon there's water around here?"
The drillers drilled on Macs mark and again, no water was found. Mac had been away all day working with my FIL. They were pleased to advise him of his failure when he arrived back in camp. His only comment was,"Did you drill straight? The stream's only about three foot wide." My FIL set up his theodolite over the
hole and informed the gathering that it was out of plumb. Another hole was drilled beside the original with the aid of the instrument to determine plumb. Water at about 25ft. When they turned to congratulate Mac, he was in his tent snoring his head off.
My FIL told me this story when I sheepishly asked him his take on water divining as I was putting in a new dam at home and wanting to sink a bore nearby. Yes, that bore was successful also. My FIL tried and tried to work the wires but had no joy. Even when he knew the spot I had marked, the rods would remain Germanically unmoving, much to his annoyance. After that, whenever he introduced me to someone, he would always add, "But he's a bit kooky."

[Master Splinter]

Well, if it's so reliable, those with dowsing abilities should be able to organise an acceptable test protocol and make a neat $100,000 and US$1,000,000.

All the dowsers in the Dick Smith test agreed ahead of time that they were sure that they would be able to locate water in the test rig.

All checked the area ahead of testing to make sure there were no influences that might throw off their abilities (existing underground streams and so on).

All tested their abilities to correctly dowse the water location when the location was known to them (so they were confident they could get a correct response in the test environment).

All were given up to 10 attempts (actual number decided by the dowser) to correctly locate the pipe with water.

Despite this, none of the dowsers were able to show a success rate higher than random chance.

[rustynail]

All the dowsers did not agree. Many of us wouldn't be in it as I mentioned earlier. A lot of blokes thought for the money they would have a go. Money speaks all languages and there are a lot of get rich quick people out there. There is no doubt about it, the Dick Smith Debacle did more damage than good. It was not a true test of divining. Anybody that knows anything about it would know the risks of trying to find water in plastic laid the day before. It doesnt work like that, so luck would be a big factor. The tests proved nothing. It was naive at best and scurrilous at worst.

[issatree]

Hi to all the Skeptics & others,
I was employed by The State Electricity Commission of Victoria. We were divided up into Gangs, & each to a particular Area.
Poles had to be changed, so there was no water worries there.
When we went into a new area, we had to be careful not to dig up PMG Cables in those days.
I was lucky enough to be able to find the Water Pipes, with 2 pieces of Copper Wire, but of course we knew they were there, but where ??.
I don't recall ever getting it wrong & we never went through any Water Pipes.
So it was either on one side of the road or the other. A few of the Chaps wood have a go but they weren't as accurate as me.

Went to the Kyneton Lost Trades Fair, & there was a Water Divining Chap there explaining all about it, but he used 2 bits of Plastic Tube to put the wires in, & also used a forked stick.
I am a believer, even if the others are not, & I know it works, for me anyway.