Pedetrian crossings on the perimter of roundabouts DRIVE ME NUZ!

[FenceFurniture]

Is there any valid reason at all for putting a PC right on the exit of a roundabout (apart from saving the pedestrian a short walk)?

All they achieve is chronic traffic choke points. It wouldn't be so bad if pedestrians kept the car driving brains when they walk.

Here in Katoomba we have a number of these (some with four crossings - one at each roundabout exit). The most notable is at the Railway station, and when the sheep get off the train the choke point is appalling! "baaaaah" "baaah" "Baaaaah" as the tourists (the dopiest pedestrians of all) stream across.

[ian]

Hi Brett

I'm off to bed and so should you.
But don't forget your pills.

[bsrlee]

Quite likely to at least partly control the pedestrians, who otherwise would just flood across the road in all directions.

Of course, from your study of the Australian Road Rules (various States and Territories) would be aware that pedestrians (and bicyclists, roller skaters etc) are all 'traffic' and would be entitled to the same right of way that cars are while on the roundabout.

[FenceFurniture]

Yes, of course they are. The crossings should be set back at least 20 metres from the roundabout though - this would give at least some safety from the gits that don't look for pedestrians at the perimeter of the roundabout, and let some vehicular traffic pass through too.

[ian]

Hi Brett

can I suggest you go and park your car near the Katoomba shops and go for a walk around the shopping centre.

you will Pedestrians tend to follow what are known as "desire lines" -- basically the straight line between where they are and where they want to get to. so if you are walking along one street and want to get to the other side of a crossing street you will want to continue walking in a straight line.

when you come to the next cross street, I want you to walk about 50m along the crossing street, cross the road and then walk the 50m back to the corner. Then try telling me that making you walk an additional 100m (which would take the "standard pedestrian" around a minute and a half) made no difference to your journey. Compared to driving a car, walking an extra 100m is equivalent to taking a 1km detour

[KBs PensNmore]

What I hate is pedestrians that go past a pedestrian crossing, then j walk across the road and then go troppo at you for not giving them right of way.
Kryn

[ian]

What I hate is pedestrians that go past a pedestrian crossing, then j walk across the road and then go troppo at you for not giving them right of way.
Kryn

hate to say this, but the last crash I was involved with was when I stopped to allow a pedestrian to use a pedestrian crossing in a country town -- a local ran up my rear. How dare I stop for a pedestrian !!

[FenceFurniture]

But don't forget your pills.

Firstly, if this isn't meant to be offensive then perhaps some smileys could be included, otherwise one is not sure....

can I suggest you go and park your car near the Katoomba shops and go for a walk around the shopping centre.

you will Pedestrians tend to follow what are known as "desire lines" -- basically the straight line between where they are and where they want to get to. so if you are walking along one street and want to get to the other side of a crossing street you will want to continue walking in a straight line.

when you come to the next cross street, I want you to walk about 50m along the crossing street, cross the road and then walk the 50m back to the corner. Then try telling me that making you walk an additional 100m made no difference to your journey.

The crossings should be set back at least 20 metres from the roundabout though - this would give at least some safety from the gits that don't look for pedestrians at the perimeter of the roundabout, and let some vehicular traffic pass through too.

How do you turn at least 20 metres (clearly meaning 20-25 metres) into 50 metres??? I agree that 50 metres is too far, and is unnecessary. However, that was never suggested.



I went up and took some pics this morning, thinking it would be pretty busy. Not to be - the State election must have kept people away today. In any case I can show the areas that create the problems (and others that don't).

This is the roundabout on the southern side of the railway overpass, and there is a traffic lit intersection with the Highway about 50-70 metres out the right (which creates a great deal of congestion for traffic at this roundabout). You can see that the burgundy Ford has stopped for a pedestrian well short of the mark, and right in the middle of the path of the white Camry wagon that could otherwise get through. Blue car manages to stop abreast of the Ped.Crossing.


Same roundabout which has about 4 metres from perimeter to Crossing. This time the red car stops, and I observed that the burgundy wagon was clearly not aware of a looming pedestrian - had to stop with bonnet-dipping suddeness - again, right across the path of a car that could have passed through. Stopped perhaps a metre or less from the back of the red car.



As a result of the too-short distance of crossing from roundabout, this sort of thing happens all the time. Bus or truck or car+trailer stops at the roundabout, which can take ages (couple of minutes) to get through because of the traffic light choke point. What is a pedestrian supposed to do with a bloody great bus there? What about wheelchair and elderly or otherwise infirm people?



This taxi rank is in between the above roundabout and the next one down at the Railway Station. It's very narrow, and dopey Taxi drivers stand on the road leaning on the window of a mate's taxi, having a yak. I see this far too often (but not this quiet morning). You can see that there is only about ½ a metre from the edge of the car to the traffic way.


The most problematic roundabout in this precinct is the one at the Railway exit. These three twats (very obviously tourists) decided to stand on the very edge of the crossing and have a yak (as it turned out, while they waited for a friend to catch up). What I observed was a taxi stop for them and wait fully 10-15 seconds for them to cross. They didn't move, but looked for all the world like they were about to cross. STEP BACK YOU TWATS!


Friend arrives and they come straight out, after annoying the traffic for about 45-60 seconds. You can see that the bull bar car had to stop very quickly because they suddenly decided to cross after all the delay.


The pics above show the busiest crossing of this intersection. There are only three roadway exits (not the usual four). This next pic is the opposite end of above and shows that there is room for 1½ cars between crossing and roundabout. This crossing has very very little pedestrian traffic, and so in that case it's not much of a problem. However, in the previous one the gap is the same (about 1½ cars worth) and creates all sorts of bank ups while the pedetrians stream across - particularly when a train has arrived to disgorge it's contents.



This is the third crossing near that roundabout. It is about 18 metres from the perimeter, and that is room for 3-4 cars depending on size. There is another obstacle right on this point, and that is cars parking in a 15 minute zone (RIGHT on the edge of the roundabout - where the bright blue car is, and one spot behind it). However, because there is a reasonable gap to the crossing there are nowhere near the amount of blockages caused by pedestrians.



I stood for a while and observed the main crossing. The bloody tourists leave their brains at home - many that I saw would walk across the first half, then slow down in the second half while they pointed out things in their "desire lines". There were cars waiting for them. CHRISSAKES - BE ALERT, get off the road and out of harm's way! I've seen them walking across while they are texting, I've seen them start to cross and turn back after a metre or two or 4 because a friend says "no wait for the other sheep" and then turn straight back around again because they decide not to wait after all. Poor old car driver waiting for them can't figure out WHAT they will do next.....

Now this is exacerbated because Katoomba is a major tourist destination, and tourist pedestrians are the most air-headed of all: like walking in a phalanx of 15-20 taking up the entire quite wide footpath - then the phalanx stands as a tighter unit - complete with strollers and back packs and trolley luggage - at the bus stop blocking all other foot traffic.

My overall point is move the crossings back about 15-20 metres (a slight revision since observing) and there will be much less congestion, and more safety. Motorists have a fair bit to contend with, and this would relieve a little bit of it.

[Ironwood]

They have done the same thing to the roundabouts in the CBD in Mackay as well. It chokes the traffic flow here as well.

[Bob38S]

Thanks for the pix FF, now I fully understand what you have been on about.

Not sure as to how this can be solved but I think there would have to be a better way, surely. Do you know of any accidents in this area?

Have you considered sending your pix and concerns to the relevant authority for their comments - could be an interesting reply.

[FenceFurniture]

Not sure as to how this can be solved but I think there would have to be a better way, surely. Do you know of any accidents in this area?

It wouldn't be too hard to move the four (of five) crossings back to 15-20 metres. The best solution for the main roundabout at the Railway is "smart" traffic lights - where they only operate at higher volume times (peds and cars) and then revert to roundabout rules.

The guy at the coffee kiosk at the head of the stairs said that yes, yesterday was quiet but today would be very busy - but I couldn't get there to take pics this morning. However, next Sunday (Easter Sun) is the busiest day of the year, and I expect it will be chaos at the Railway crossing.

The other roundabout (where the bus was) also needs lights but for a different reason - so as to coincide with the lights at the hwy and reduce the choke point significantly.

Have you considered sending your pix and concerns to the relevant authority for their comments - could be an interesting reply.

Good idea, I might just do that.

Haven't witnessed any accidents, but have seen near misses. To be frank, accidents at that low speed are not too big a deal, it's the traffic choke that is the problem. Mind you, an accident at any speed above 1-3 kph with a pedestrian is likely to be injurious.

[Bob38S]

Thanks for that.

[ian]

Hi Brett

I'm off to bed and so should you.
But don't forget your pills.

I shouldn't have presumed that our familiarity was sufficient that I could post this without including the right smilies

I'm sorry

[FenceFurniture]

I shouldn't have presumed that our familiarity was sufficient that I could post this without including the right smilies

I'm sorry

No worries Ian, just wasn't sure.

[ian]

Hi Brett

fully agree re installing smart lights at the problem roundabout.

In terms of where should the pedestrian crossing at a roundabout be located -- there's no easy answer.
move it 15 to 20m from the roundabout and the pedos don't like the extra distance they have to walk so start looking to cross the road before the crossing and some cars will be accelerating back to their desired travel speed -- the 50m above was me being lazy with the walking time calcs

The set back distances you show in your photos, look to me to be a reasonable compromise -- of course brainless pedos and equally vacant headed drivers are not an ideal mix, but what we have is what we have.
The roundabout rules say, give way to the vehicle already in the roundabout, but in practice this seems to translate to you MUST give way to the vehicle APPROACHING the roundabout from your right. I've stopped counting the number of drivers who blow their horn because I've had the temerity to enter a roundabout before they arrive at it.

If drivers didn't tailgate -- a difficult concept to grasp and enforce in an era of camera based enforcement -- they would see that they couldn't clear the roundabout because the vehicle ahead of them was waiting for a pedo, so they wouldn't enter the roundabout thus making space for traffic from other legs. Likewise, if drivers knew how short their cars were they'd know that they would fit in the distance between the roundabout's exit and the pedo crossing.

Perhaps traffic engineers who live in hope that drivers will some day be better educated and courteous are delusional.