Active noise suppression muffs?

[Pearo]

I use noise cancelling headset when flying planes. They are great till the run out of battery, then there are totally useless. I lashed out 18 months ago and spend big on a headset that has excellent passive noise reduction and active noise cancelling. Its actually that good, that I often forget to turn on the noise cancelling.. They are cheaper then the defacto bose standard noise cancelling headsets and way better. Useless here, but they are a telex stratus 50d.

I would try for a good set of passive muffs first, nothing worse than having batteries go flat when you need them the most.

[soundman]

As you all may know I am a soundman so hearing is very important to me.

I have always been very carefull with my hearing and have and still do wear hearing protection when many others think it is unnecessary.

Over the years I have made a study of variuos hearing protection devices.

I even sold peltor muffs before they made a break into the safety market.
Peltor for many years marketed specifically to the shooter market and most in industry had never heard of them.....but their muffs made what was being offered by the safety companies look like the rubbish they where......mostly very uncomfortable or ineffictive.

So as it stands I own about 5 sets of peltor muffs.

If it comes to serious attenuation there is only one muff to have and that is the Peltor H10.
attenuation, comfort and security (staying on) nothing beats them.

BUT they do have limitations, like ALL earmuffs they suffer in low frequency attenuation

If you are in an environment with serious low frequency content they will not be sufficient.

Ear plugs on the other hand even the cheap roll up plugs do very well in low frequency attenuation but suffer in the top end.

If you doubt this....check the graps.



A few years ago I was driving an old Mack tipper....after trying a couple of different sets of existing muffs and not finding them sufficient I went and baught a new set of H10 s.....I was still experienceing undesirable effects, so I baught a box of cheap, reputable brand, disposable, foam, ear plugs....I ended up driving this thing in plugs and H10 muffs.

I took a sound level meter to work one day and found it was about 85dbA in the cab at idle and 106dbA Full noise fully loaded up a hill.
After several weeks I knew this could not go on so I gave notice.




I had never been keen on ear plugs till then, but it drove home the realities and limitations of the various devices.

If you are using any of the heavy ear muffs with the behind the head frame, you must use the over the head strap that comes with them....The H10s come with a light webbing strap with a velcro adjustment...they simply will not stay in place otherwise.



If you are using plugs you need to find out and work out how to fit them properly.
The first thing you need to know is how YOUR ear canals as shaped......they are not just straight and they most likly will not be the same left and right.

My left ear the canal is pretty well square on to the side of my head and curves up as is expected, but right ear it is angled forward.

If you just stuff the plugs straight in you have no hope of getting a good effective and comfortable seal.
You need to roll the plug up tight and then present it to your ear in the direction it needs to go.....push it in then hold it there till it expands fully.
My left ear is easy, my right takes more care.

If you think driving and working in muffs and plugs, 8 to 10 hours a day was a pain....yeh danm straight.....could I hear what was going on arround...well I could hear the two way.....but the environment was so noisy any way it mattered little..and without propper protection I would be as deaf as all the others in very short order.

One thing that struck me was,..... when I got out of the cab I would generally take the muffs off....If I was just getting out to get some paperwork signed or for a quick chat..I'd leave the plugs in.....I was shocked to find even with the plugs still in I was hearing better than many others on the sites.

There is a hell of a lot of very bad hearing damage out there.



NOW, back to noise canceling ear muffs.....I do not believe any of these noise canceling muffs are compliant with the standards or provide sufficient attenuation for industrial use.


One thing I do strongly believe in is, using the correct protection for the job....as I say, I have 5 sets of ear muffs in 4 different models.
They range from a fairly light muff designed for small calibre shooting, a couple of pairs of peltor's early mid range industrial muffs, a pair of Bullseye muffs (intended for heavy calibre work) that where the heaviest muff at one time thu to the H10s.

The muffs I wear the most are the light weight ones....they are adequate for most workshp and yard work, I have no trouble wearing them for hours and I can have a normal conversation without taking them off.

when things get louder..I ramp it up.



If you still need high attenuation and hear what is going on.....look for a tactical ear muff....peltor used to make them....someone still must.....they are a high attenuation earmuff with a microphone, small amplifier and speakers inside.
The amplifier has a limiter circuit.
They where designed for SWAT teams and the military.
There is another version that has a two way radio patch as well.
BUT, they will be NBG where there is continuous noise.


NOW...here is something for $#!ts & giggles.
get ya self some dencent foam ear plugs....put em in....then put your high attenuation ear muffs ( H10) on.....now chew on an apple or a stick of celery.....its funnier if you have watched "Minsicule" on the ABC.

cheers

[steamingbill]

Is it possible to combine both passive and active noise suppression ?

ie get a pair of industrial ear muffs from the safety shop and then underneath them put a pair of noise cancelling earphones in your ears.

Idea being that what gets past the passive muffs is then cancelled by the active earphone

....... and yes some thought may be required regarding whether or not any noise gets past the seal where the wire goes under the earmuff.

Bill

[soundman]

The indication is that it simply is not practcal otherwise the major hearing protection companies would be marketing such a product.

Noise canceling has been arroud for quite a long time for nusance level noise.....but it has not to my knowledge made the the jump to the main line hearing protection products either in industrial safety, avation or millitary applications.

And I can see some reasons for it.

cheers

[BobL]

Is it possible to combine both passive and active noise suppression ?

ie get a pair of industrial ear muffs from the safety shop and then underneath them put a pair of noise cancelling earphones in your ears.

Idea being that what gets past the passive muffs is then cancelled by the active earphone

I've tried using both noise cancelling buds and regular earphones under Peltor H!0 while listening to audio books on a long trip in my HiAce diesel van and on across Australia flights.
I tried them with and without sound and noise cancelling on/off.
Sound wise there did not appear to be much difference between regular and NC buds probably because the H10s do most of the blocking and regular earphones do block some external sound.

The main problem I found with this is that I can only wear the H10's continuously for about an hour and then I need a break. Then when I put them on the second or subsequent times I can only wear them for ~30 minutes or so before I need another break. One of the reasons the quality passive muff like the H10 works so well is they press quite firmly around the skull and I find this area gets hot, I sweat and its just not comfortable. In comparison I find I can wear a reasonable quality noise cancelling muff for many hours before I need a break and I can rest my head onto the head rest with them without any problems so for flights etc the comfort factor outweighs the performance.


In general while driving I find even using regular earphones a bit disorienting, NC muffs more disorienting, and the H10s even more so. What they seem to do is significantly disconnect me from the driving experience - it feels like 'ms driving in a fog. One has to outweigh the risk of hearing damage against not hearing something significant. For me I reckon being able to hear what is going on like other vehicle horns etc is important. While working on machinery etc I tend to not wear muffs continuously - the most would be about 20 minutes at a time.

In terms of using anything connected to one ears while working I've found I I don't like wires hanging around my head. I have done the wires behind the head and down the back of the shirt but like driving I find disconnected from my work and can't concentrate properly. Mundane tasks like lawn mowing are OK but definitely not something like chainsaw or power tool use.

NC technologies are widely used in high end communications headsets such as those worn by aircraft ground crew and pilots but they are not usually used on the output side (ear phones) but on the input side (mics) to reduce noise that interferes with coms.
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...&rt=rs&x=0&y=0

[soundman]

Noise cancleing microphones and noise canceling headphones are two very different technologies.

Noise canceling microphones are in general phisically acoustic devices...though there are some that use opposing dynamic microhpne diphrams...and they have been arround a very very long time...like at least back to the 30's.

As far as comfort in earmuffs.....it is not common in industrial safety, but in communications headsets, comfort socks are common...many communications headsets are a cross between a headphine and a earmuff.

This is simply a cloth cover that goes over the whole muff preventing plastic to skin contact.

In heavy industrial environments, they may result in a small attenuation loss, but there are very effective.
I have in the past from time to time worn theater intercom headsets for up to 12 hours in a day....in leiu of a shop baught comfort sock, I have used a clean handkerchief.

I would not be using H10s for air travel, I do not think the isolation would trade off effectivly against the comfort.
Id be looking at one of the lighter sets of muffs.

As far as the isolation from reality that hearing protection produces.......well that depends on now loud reality is.

I was most certainly aware of it driving the Mack.....but the whole reality of driving old, loud trucks like that is pretty INtense...you are relying very much on vision to know what is going on arround...and...actually the attenuation of the hearing protection was not a disadvantge...I could actually hear what I needed to hear better.
That is without considering any temporay hearing shift or permenent hearing loss that may occur without the muffs.


It is very much a case of the correct level of protection from the PPE in the situation.



Here is an unrelated example.

If you went to work on some bee hives.....your concentration and awaremess of the surrounding world wold be far better wearing the correct PPE....beeing constantly stung by bees woud certainly effect your perception of the surrounding world......you would come to find the PPE quite comfortable in that situation.

But you would find the same PPE quite isolative and uncomfortable watching TV with the family........unless you has some desire for privacy.

To quote Jamie Hyneman..."I like it..its private in here"

cheers

[Pearo]

The indication is that it simply is not practcal otherwise the major hearing protection companies would be marketing such a product.

Noise canceling has been arroud for quite a long time for nusance level noise.....but it has not to my knowledge made the the jump to the main line hearing protection products either in industrial safety, avation or millitary applications.

And I can see some reasons for it.

cheers

The active noise cancelling headphones are pretty common in aviation now. Bose seem to be the defacto stadard. They do work, and work well. As I said, I use telex stratus 50 hedaset, and the noise cancelling clearly make a difference. Pull your headset off inflight and you realise how effective they are.

[soundman]

I was aware that there are expensive noise cancleing headsets.....But I did not think they could be considered mainline.

the other thing is the noise canceling for hearing protection or for comfort.

Are these noise canceling headphones certified for hearing protection.

taking off the headset is hardly a reasonable demonstration....leave the headset on a turn off the noise canceling....then compre it with a good physical isolation hearing protection.


Seems most of the noise canceling headphones are being used in situations where the background noise is fairly constant and of relatvly low SPL and the physical headtset already provides the majority of the attenuation.

It occurs to me that considerable amplifier and acoustic power would be required to cancel out high volumes, large low frequency content and impulse noise.

start pushing up the capacity of the electronics and then you run into the limitations cause by issolation procuded by the actual can.

so the more capable the noise cancling , the heavier the headset has to be anyway.

There is just no way arround it...noise canceling technogy will only ever be suplimental

then there is the cost to consider....all of these high end avaitaion headsets cost money and plenty of it.

Far and away more than the $40 odd that a pair of peltor H10s or the $2 for a good set of disposable ear plugs will cost.



There have always been people who bleat about wearing hearing protection..or any safety equipment for that matter.

The practical way to deal with the situation is to obtain protection that is appropriate for the situaton.....buy good quality comfortable product.....for me that means peltor.....make sure it is properly adjusted and you wear it right..

AND


Suck it up......or get another job.

cheers

[Dengue]

for years I had the Jabra noise cancelling headphones, as recommended by Choice magazine, and I found long air flights to Brisbane, Sydney and Mt Isa etc were far less stressful using these phones. At the end of the trip I felt much less banged about.

Just recently they stopped working for some unknown reason, and find like BobL that you cannot get them any more. Can anyone please recommend a suitable replacement that is not too expensive?

[Dengue]

Can anyone recommend some good industrial ear muffs that have adjustable head fitting, so you can get them sitting comfortably? You should not have to tape foam to them to make them sit properly on your head

[Ratbag]

Thank you to all & sundry for your helpful feedback, suggestions & recommendations.

In the light of what has been said to date, I've committed to a pair of 3M/Peltor H10A 290s. These seemed to be the most "supressive" ear defenders readily available.

Although rather tight, I appreciate their close fit, and with a little tweaking of the spring steel headband, and height adjustment have possibly lost a db or two of performance in the interest of long-term wearing comfort.

How they actually perform in their intended environment is unclear as yet, as due to a painful dose of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome I've actually been off work for the last week or so.

Review to follow.

[BobL]

Can anyone recommend some good industrial ear muffs that have adjustable head fitting, so you can get them sitting comfortably? You should not have to tape foam to them to make them sit properly on your head

The problem with anything "adjustable" is that unless they are engineered out of something like titanium they will either be heavy and more uncomfortable, or wobbly weak and break more easily. I have in mind the half dozen or so lightweight welding helmets with good comfort and adjustment but being too light weight they broke sooner rather than later. To compound things a good set of ear muffs does need to clamp down quite firmly over the ears otherwise they will not block out the sound so so they have to provide clamping tension which is why stainless steel wire is used. Last week my TDks noise cancelling ear muffs (they are not proper muffs as they don't cover the ears - they just sit on top) broke at the aluminium and plastic adjustable head band - another example of stuff that is just too flimsy these days.

One of the reasons I have problems with all head type PPE is my skull shape (SWMBO says my head is too fat although it could also just be too pointy or both . I have always found it difficult to wear hats and banded head get like helmets and ear muffs. I can make these stay on by using a high clamping pressure but then I get a headache. If I set the band tension for comfort most helmets usually tend to ride up. The Peltor muffs are better than most for sound protection because they do grip the head well but they will will eventually ride down and then off the back of my head (as do all other muffs, especial the lighter weight ones) when I move around.

The foam taped to the head band is just for when I wear muffs and glasses. 99% of the time I wear muffs in conjunction with a faceshield.
The combo that works well for me are the behind the neck Peltprs as shown below,
The muff band clips really nicely over the shield head band.
Because helmet tends to ride up and muffs down the two counteract each other just right - I can work like this for some time and I need to do this when I'm chainsaw milling.

[soundman]

First and most imporatntly ALL ear muffs need to be adjusted to suit the persons head...we don't all have the same size and shape heads.

those of us with big heads may find a lot of the heavier muffs too tight out of the box or not have the correct balance of tension to get the ear cup sitting with even tension arround the ear.

It is easy to stretch a headband and ease the tension, it is near impossible to put more tension into a head band if there is insufficient...so they are all made a little over tight,

Of course you have to be carefull not to take too much tension out of the band.

back a while the US company TELEX pioneered the communications headphone combined with hearing protector...the commercial item was marketed as the "heardefender"

I have seen these straight out of the box and the headbands where so tight I swear you could pull a man off his feet by the head set.
I have several set of these that came my way used and they all have had the headbands stretched to a tolerabel level.

I use almost exclusvly behind he ear muffs, because I often wear hats and visors.
I do not use the over head strap with most of them, but it is necessary with the H10 muffs with the behind the head frame.....they are simply too big and heavy not to stay put without the over head strap


for anybody looking for comfort...as far as I am concerned there is only one muff to have and that is peltor.

All the modern peltor muffs have gell filled foam ear pads and this makes a great difference to how much pressure s required to achieve a result and comfort.

I don't have a problem with glasses and muffs, they seem to sit well and see arround them....but my head has rebates to fit the glasses.

Oh a couple of final things...for some people and some muffs it may work better to have the behind the head frame infront instead.

My lighter set of peltors I wear with the frame in front..it sits about level with my jaw and a little in front...causes me no problems.

AND
Unless you have the need, do not buy high attenuation muffs like the H10s.

you are always better with a muff with adequate attenuation that is less intrusive and more comfortable....one you are more inclined to wear.

cheers

[FenceFurniture]

....but my head has rebates to fit the glasses.

you are always better with a muff with adequate attenuation that is less intrusive and more comfortable....one you are more inclined to wear.

Indeed, and not just for comfort - one must be able to hear the machine to some extent so that problems etc can be detected

[Chris Parks]

A bit more to add to what others have written, my son went to the doctor because he suffered sudden hearing loss with no apparent reason. The doctor took one look in his ears and asked him if he used to cotton ear buds to clean his ears as wax was compacted in the ear canal but that was not the case.What had caused it was him using custom made ear plugs when racing his kart to suppress the engine noise and listen to the two way radio we use so it is something to be aware of if ear plugs are regularly used. It may be that being custom made to fit his ear canals made things worse but now he regularly gets a check up to prevent the problem.