Newbie here! Non- shiny finish to use on an antique kauri tabletop?

[Libertine]

Ok Horsecroft, I've read through your marathon thread, and also Lawry's thread about his oak desk. Lots of great info there! Still have questions though... Mainly, how do I make a pad to apply the shellac? And how warm does it ideally have to be temperature wise in my shed before I should apply shellac, without resulting in a milky bloom? I live in the hills outside Melbourne and I don't have heating in the shed, so it might be a few months before we get anywhere near 20 degrees outside!

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Libertine, heh heh I did apologise in advance for my somewhat lengthy thread, as it is now. Anyway as you say plenty of info out there, so hopefully it all helps. The reason for the work in progress pics is to try to show what it looks like as one advances in sorting out the polishing aspect. I am more than happy to help explain further, just ask away.

Regarding the pad, basically French Polishers/polishers in general talk about having a core (normally something like cotton wool or similar, you could use old windcheater material etc), but then covered with a softish linen/cotton material. There are youtube videos which show how to make a pad if that might help. The main thing to try to avoid is any sort of cloth that when used will leave behind lint or worse still fibres. In terms of the pad size it should fit in the palm of your hand, large enough to enable you hold comfortably and to enable you to wipe on (padding) the shellac mix. Again "polishers" will say to apply some shellac to the core and allow this to seep through the outer pad layer. One other trick many "polishers" use is to apply a drop of oil (mineral or alternatively organic based), they saying this helps in allowing you to continue applying the shellac without it sticking.

My experience regarding this, is do make up the pad as suggested above as it works well. Also once finished using for a period of time, store it in a glass jar with a lid, it will stay moist to allow you to re-use. Where I differ and I have recently noted others do as well is on the use of oil. I have had concerns this could cause problems with the finish later on over time. Others have commented on this being a problem. True French Polishing also involves the use of pumice dust. My suggestion given the look you are after is not to go down this route. Do you really need to load the core pad with shellac first again my experience would tell me this is nonsense. I normally have a smallish container of shellac solution and simply dip the pad into it to wet/load it with shellac, sufficient to enable me to coat the surface about 2-3 times (that is say using a circular or figure of 8 application and thereafter an application following the grain of the timber, overlapping each stroke by about 1/2 as you go.

The shellac needs time to flash off (the metho drys relatively quickly anyway) and it will stick as it becomes dry. The atmospheric temperature of your workshop/shed will also affect how long it takes to become tack dry. That means ready to apply another couple of coats. The key from my experience is that in winter it will take longer than in summer to apply shellac and a little patience is needed. Take your time

In respect of temperature, you hit the key problem on the head. Yes if it is too cold, shellac can go milky (leaving a bloom or swirl marks etc). If this happens, its a pain, but fixable. At most a light sanding back with 400 grade paper will remove this. You could always try a small area of application to see if it is going to be a problem or not say on a test piece of wood, rather than your table.

The real key is to ensure that your shed is relatively warm. I would suggest that a temperature in your shed say below 10 degrees will be too cold. 20 is ideal. Between 15-20 should be ok. The other option, if it is feasible could be say to install a portable heater. Could you run an extension cord from the house to the shed (assuming the distance isn't too great ??), because if you could do that, and use a portable electric heater, you should be fine to go with shellacing. Hope that helps a little.

[Libertine]

Thanks again Horsecroft for the info on the pads. It's pretty unlikely that I'll be able to get my shed up to a decent temperature until September at the earliest, as although it is powered I don't have a portable heater, plus it's a really large space to try and heat. But actually, having said that, I really don't want to wait that long, so I shall have a look on the Gumtree for an old oil heater I think.

I must say,it's really great fun doing this sort of thing for the first time, but it's also really annoying not having all the stuff on hand, having never used it before! I'm still having to wait for all my supplies to arrive by post, and now I need to find a heater! Urgh.

still, I have plenty to keep me busy in the meantime. When I was sanding with the 400grit paper a lot of the fine white sawdust settled into the tiniest grooves on the tabletop and I notices a few swirlies that I must have made with the 120 grit paper, so I'll have to sand those bits down again then bring them back up to 400 grit. Fun fun!

[Timless Timber]

Maybe I'm the only one - but I love oil finish and after trying everything suggested here (Scandinavian, Tung, Danish, Organ, Birchwood - Casey's true oil etc and then finally settled eventually on something totally different!.

Gillie Stephensons Orange Oil (made from the skins of oranges), which leave a wonderful orange citrus scent to the piece and soaks in really well, and has a light honey/orange tinge to blond woods.

Polish afterwoods with Gillie Stephensons Bees wax.

Products | Orange Oil (Gilly Stephenson's) | Recochem - Australia

also available at your local Bunnings store.

Gilly Stephensons 250ml Australian Orange Oil - Bunnings Warehouse

Used to buy it in Bulk from her in the end - 5 Liter (gallon) plastic jugs hjust because its so much cheaper than buying the little bottles thru Bunnings.

Can't beat it. Can't stand the smell of organ oil etc.

Cheers!

[LGS]

So Timeless,
How did you apply all these oils you don't like? Did you follow anyone's recommendations, or just play it by ear? I'd say that not everyone is blown away by orange scent and in fact Organoil products are resuspended in a plant solvent known as Terpene, which gives a clean fresh smell, which I have found that all my customers adore.
Perhaps you'd like to show us some photos of the orange oil finish compared to, say, Hard Burnishing or Scandinavian Oil applied properly. It would be interesting to see a comparison of grain resolution.
I'd also like to know how resilient the finish (with Bees wax) is to radiant heat and liquid spills such as red wine, which has been left on the finish for say, four hours.
There's a difference between Oil finishes which becomes obvious when they are placed under stress.

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

Thanks again Horsecroft for the info on the pads. It's pretty unlikely that I'll be able to get my shed up to a decent temperature until September at the earliest, as although it is powered I don't have a portable heater, plus it's a really large space to try and heat. But actually, having said that, I really don't want to wait that long, so I shall have a look on the Gumtree for an old oil heater I think.

I must say,it's really great fun doing this sort of thing for the first time, but it's also really annoying not having all the stuff on hand, having never used it before! I'm still having to wait for all my supplies to arrive by post, and now I need to find a heater! Urgh.

still, I have plenty to keep me busy in the meantime. When I was sanding with the 400grit paper a lot of the fine white sawdust settled into the tiniest grooves on the tabletop and I notices a few swirlies that I must have made with the 120 grit paper, so I'll have to sand those bits down again then bring them back up to 400 grit. Fun fun!

Hi Libertine,
Oil finish won't need a heater, your sander will provide the heat and the exercise will keep you warm.

Are you sure you have a random orbital sander and not just an orbital? If it is a ROS, then you shouldn't really get swirlies, more like scratches.

Anyway, when using a ROS, I find that starting the sander up when it is sitting on the wood is one good way to get marring of the surface, particularly with low grits. Try bringing the sander down onto the surface, like you are landing a plane. You'll get a better finish.

Regards,

Rob

[Timless Timber]

Bob,

Over the 20 years I tried organ oil several times.

I can't stand the stench of it - OK?.

I prefer orange oil & finally settled on that as my personal preference, to Organ Oil.

Get over it. Organ oil is OK - but I don't like the smell & couldn't put up with it in my house. It was bad enough the stench in the factory.

After 20 years at it, that was my preference.

You can drink organ oil if you wish - that's no skin off my nose.

Your umbrage at my opinion won't change my opinion, I found organ oil to be too thin, and the smell irritated me - in fact it would trigger an asthma event. When we did use it - the furniture when placed in our showroom drew many complaints from clients about the stench in the showroom - we only ever got compliments about the smell of orange citrus with Gillie Stephenson's Orange Oil.

Have you used Gillie Stephensons Orange oil?

Whats your Obsessions with Organ Oil - are you an agent for it or something?

You couldn't give me Organ Oil if I won it in a raffle.

Get over it is my suggestion.

"Oils ain't Oils", Bob!

So I suggested something different to you... well boo hoo. Don't be such a big girls blouse about it.

Cheers.

[LGS]

So I asked for a comparison of your finish against several others. You don't want to do it Fine! Just don't come on here with a statement about how good a finish is without being prepared for some criticism. You guys are all the same. No skin off my nose whatsoever. Next time I'll just ignore you.

Toodle pip!

[Timless Timber]

I just don't feel a need to justify my opinion to you, or debate it in a public forum, on a "only one can be right basis" - after 20 years at it, and using both, and making my choice is all.

I stated my opinion - yours differs to mine. Great. I can agree to disagree - and get on with life.

I feel no need to persuade you around to my position, your obviously happy with your organ oil, and bully to you for it.

That's the beauty of a forum - a person asks a question, people offer their opinions and the original poster can decide whatever they wish to do based on the info supplied.

I thought that was the whole point of a forum - not a whizzing contest, of who's oil is best decided by who shouts the loudest or public opinion.

If it's an issue for you - perhaps go start a forum poll on it or something?.

I see you haven't used the Orange Oil... but you know that organ Oil is better.

I've used both - I prefer Orange Oil as did the greater majority of my clients.

I settled on Orange Oil.

I'm happy for you to ignore my posts in future please.

Cheers.

[LGS]

I have at no time ridiculed your opinion, nor questioned its validity.
What I asked for was details of how you applied the various oils you'd discarded as no use and whether or not you could show some data to allow a comparison for myself and others. This is the benefit of a forum.

Again at no stage did I say your opinion was wrong, I asked for qualification. There is no plot to undermine you or your opinion.

Also, for your information, I have tried Orange Oil, though I don't believe it was Gilly Stephenson's. Also I have on several occasions recommended her wax to people. I found that the Orange Oil was insipid and gave less than optimal grain differentiation after application. I used several coats separated by 12 hours over 3 days.
That is my experience.

So it's a pity you decided to rant and move the discussion into some kind of threat to your ego and experience. You've completely failed to allow an informed decision regarding an oil you obviously feel passionate about.

You have said elsewhere that you are extremely impatient. I sincerely hope you learn to manage your impatience and the associated emotions also.

[Libertine]

Alright folks, settle down! I am interested to see the different finishes and hear about experiences with different products, and pics would be really great too, if you could manage it? I'm also interested to hear about Gillie Stephensons wax products because I'm a WA expat and like to hear about the local produce

Rob, it's definitely a ROS but I started out using the 120 grit paper to get rid of the horrid brown stain, and I'd never used a sander (or any power tool) before. I think that I must have put some scratches into the surface by not using the sander completely flat against the top. They're not exactly swirls, but there are a few little 'C' shaped scratches in a row. I was using the sander at speeds of 2.5 or 3 (it's a Bosch one, it goes up to 6). Perhaps I sHould use it faster?

also, can you use shellac over oil? Just wondering if I could try out an oil finish first, then go over with shellac if I decide I want that orange shellac colour?

And Rob, is it ok to use a ROS with that dust extractor filter thingo when sanding an oil finish, or will the oil clog up the machine?

[Timless Timber]

At no time did i ridicule your opinion

.

Really?

Your words betray you.

Just don't come on here with a statement about how good a finish is without being prepared for some criticism. You guys are all the same.

I think i know all I need to know about your experience and opinion, from your opinions & personal attacks, already expressed, to know that I have no interest wasting my time debating you, as it would just be throwing pearls before swine, and I choose not to do it.

Anyone with an interest has only to buy a 250 mm bottle of Gillys Orange Oil from bunnings and a little organ oil and do theirown tests and pick what THEY like.

I personally do NOT like Organ Oil. I've used it more than once and was left underwhelmed.

I've used Gillies Stephensons Orange Oil (which has a bees wax component in it), and it leaves me feeling all warm n fuzzy and my furniture the way I like it finished.

Off to find the ignore button.

Do whatever floats your boat - Organ Oil don't float mine & orange oil does - but I have no dog in this fight, so that's it from me.

Just don't p!ss down my leg and try 'n tell me it's raining OK?

Cheers!

[Horsecroft88]

Hi all, and I debated with myself to completely stay out of this or perhaps not. But I have to say that the thread hijack of a perfectly fine discussion/opportunity to discuss options-experience and ideas is getting a little out of hand. Libertine is correct in her comments.

Please lets keep it for this purpose. I too could have gone silly re my preference for shellac, but it is not my project nor am I trying to influence Libertine in her choice as to what to use on it, be it shellac or oils. They all provide finishes that are perfectly good for some reasons and/or perhaps not in other cases. Nothing wrong with that.

The only other thing I wish to note is that I havn't ever seen or used orange oil so have no experience. My experience with hard burnishing organoil is very limited, but I was happy with its durability and finish. The odour never bothered me, but that is me. Everyone is different.

In respect of the sanding marks Libertine mentioned, with some careful hand sanding I would think that such marks should be able to be removed. If 400 doesn't you might need to go back a grade and thereafter use 400 for the fine prep surface. From my experience yes you can apply shellac over an oiled and even waxed surface, the only thing is you might need to lightly key it back.

Pity about the issue of a heater in your shed, but yes if it is too cold there, I also wouldn't be trying to shellac coat the table. I recently tried shellac finishing some skirtings in my 1826 country property, and it was too cold in the hall, and yes they have gone slightly milky. As I discussed, I don't see this as a problem as I will be able to readily sort that out with light sanding and re-coating, once either the ambient temps are warmer or I take a heater out to the property when working there.

[Timless Timber]

Non- shiny finish

The thread title says the original poster is looking for a non shiny finish.





This Jarrah table and chairs was finished in Gillie Stephenson's Orange Oil and Beeswax.

For what it's worth, you don't get any more 'organic' than natural oil squeezed from orange skins, and bees wax from the hive. You don't need a fancy organic oil name to market something to the gullible, that is actually organic, because it actually is, just what it states!.

The degree of "shine" is determined by how much you sand the project, before oiling and waxing.

If the sanded project is sanded so fine that it shines before the oil and wax then it will shine after it. if it doesn't shine before hand - it wont shine afterwards.

The depicted table & chairs were sanded down to 1200 grit before use of Orange Oil, and then beeswax - buffed with a sheep's wool pad on a polisher!

It's been re oiled a few times since - and looks just how I happen to like it, to this day.
Others may have different likes or preferences.... and may do whatever they happen to like.
I know what I like and how to achieve it!
Others may choose whatever they like.

Thats the beauty of doing whatever you like, regardless how much it bends others out of shape.

This is a similar designed table I built - again finished just the same way.







The blond timbers like this curly Marri & curly Jarrah drinks / wine rack cabinet came up OK also with the Orange oil and bees wax.





Cheers

[Libertine]

Thanks for the pics Timless Timber, looks nice on that wine rack sideboard! I think I'm after something with a tad more of a warm colour to it for my project, because sadly the grain on my light timber tabletop doesn't just 'speak for itself' like that beautiful wood you have used there.

I shall do what you say Horsecroft, sand by hand to 240 then back up to 400 to get my scratches out. Not today though, have to dog-proof my fence. The neighbours' little terrier figured out she can fit through the wire today, which means my greyhound will eat her tomorrow if we don't chicken-wire the joint.