What finish is this? Restoration of Art nouveau piece

[Dukebox]

Hi there,

i have been restoring a few prices of late in my spare time however I've picked myself up a piece which will stretch me a little further.I think it's an art nouveau styled piece which is in very ordinary shape. Someone has previously started stripping the piece ( which is a shame) however there is some of the paint (or is it a stain...) left which shows what it once looked like.

I'm hoping someone can identify what kind of finish it is, so that I can colour match the original prior to stripping it back and attempting to return it back to its original state.Any advice or thoughts would be great fully appreciated.



Ive read up and know I could probably test different removal techniques to help work out what finish it is, but I was hoping for a head start.And advice on how to restore this post the stripping would be appreciated as well.Cheers

[Dukebox]

Anybody?

[fineboxes]

Could be Japanning or Black Lacquer What have you tried to melt or remove it

Cheers

Steve

[Dukebox]

Hi Steve - I haven't as yet tried removing it, but based on the condition of the top, it looks like someone has taken to it with paint stripper at some stage.

Does Japanning or Black Lacquer come in different colours? Although the majority of it is black, as you can see on some pictures, there are red and brown tones used on the flowering.

Could be Japanning or Black Lacquer What have you tried to melt or remove it

Cheers

Steve

[mark david]

Hi it's more than likely a lacquer that is shellac based,they were used in a variety of colurs but black was the most commonly used.Black lacquer became very popular In England after the death of Prince Albert.
It is quite unpopular in the antiques trade and a lot of pieces ended up dunked in a caustic tank and sold as shipping furniture

I suppose it's personal taste whether to try and restore the original finish or strip and wax it but you would need to remove all the old stuff first,Methylated spirits should remove it or failing that it's probbly a case of using paint stripper.

Hi there,

i have been restoring a few prices of late in my spare time however I've picked myself up a piece which will stretch me a little further.I think it's an art nouveau styled piece which is in very ordinary shape. Someone has previously started stripping the piece ( which is a shame) however there is some of the paint (or is it a stain...) left which shows what it once looked like.

I'm hoping someone can identify what kind of finish it is, so that I can colour match the original prior to stripping it back and attempting to return it back to its original state.Any advice or thoughts would be great fully appreciated.



Ive read up and know I could probably test different removal techniques to help work out what finish it is, but I was hoping for a head start.And advice on how to restore this post the stripping would be appreciated as well.Cheers

[Dukebox]

Hi it's more than likely a lacquer that is shellac based,they were used in a variety of colurs but black was the most commonly used.Black lacquer became very popular In England after the death of Prince Albert.
It is quite unpopular in the antiques trade and a lot of pieces ended up dunked in a caustic tank and sold as shipping furniture

I suppose it's personal taste whether to try and restore the original finish or strip and wax it but you would need to remove all the old stuff first,Methylated spirits should remove it or failing that it's probbly a case of using paint stripper.

Cheers mark,

looking to get onto it this weekend. I'll try methylated spirits and some steel wool over the weekend and see how best I can clean it up. Waxing it sounds interesting - may be a better option than shellacing.

im looking to buy the Polishers Handbook from the forum sponsors to help with the process but unfort their order page is not working.

[ExKellick]

Hiya, its a pretty safe bet that the finish of that era was spirit based (eg ethanol alcohol - usually without the methanol). Best thing to do is test it with some meths and see if it softens the finish, if so, it should come off ok. Scotchbrite (red or grey) is probably a better bet than steel wool as it is less likely to come apart. You will need a smallish stiff brush as well. I sometimes used TSP (trisodium phosphate found in Bunnings) on some of the older finishes but it is mixed with water and will raise the grain or even fur it if you are not careful. This way you will get pretty much all the old finish out but you will also have no patina left. (Not that you will with a removed Japanned finish anyway)

The finish where it is all grey looks to me like it has been sitting wet somewhere so to do anything you are really going to have to start from scratch.

The piece does not look that old or valuable and given the light colour of the base timber will be difficult to create a clean looking piece without doing some form of staining or re japanning and colouring to it. Unless you are good at getting the coloured parts right with traditional finishes you are probably best just going for a finish on the timber. If it was me I would clean it up as best as possible and get the condition of the timber into a good state by lightly sanding / scotch brighting the timber and then go for a lightish oak / walnut finish starting with a light diluted wash of light oak oil stain, followed by a couple of coats of shellac hand rubbed (its quicker than it sounds) and then adjusted with either a wipe on coat of black Japan (done lightly and sort of rubbed back off while still wet) or vandyke crystals in water.

The trick is once you have a base sealer coat of shellac you can mess around with oil or water based dyes to get the colour you want. Steer clear of spirit based stains like the feast watson ones unless you know what you are doing or you could end up with a freakish colour piece you can't fix.

Once you get you colour right you can go back over with a few coats of shellac to seal it all in. You can cheat by brushing the shellac with a very soft brush (dries really fast) and then buffing over with a rubber (essentially a cotton rag with wadding inside it) very lightly damped with meths and even a dab of baby oil.

Not sure if that helped but it works for me most times with general antique work. The quality of the finish is directly proportional to how much time and care you put into the prep and each stage. A good finish is something that is built step by step rather than just applied.

[RETIRED]

Cheers mark,

looking to get onto it this weekend. I'll try methylated spirits and some steel wool over the weekend and see how best I can clean it up. Waxing it sounds interesting - may be a better option than shellacing.

im looking to buy the Polishers Handbook from the forum sponsors to help with the process but unfort their order page is not working.

Problem has been fixed. Thank you.

[Dukebox]

ExKellick - Thanks so much for your time in putting that response together. It's helped a lot. Unfortunately I've been out of action so am yet to put it into practice. Hopefully this weekend.

I'll try put it to practice this weekend when I start the strip. I think you might be right re what sort of finish I should go with. I'll post an update once i've started.

Rob - thanks for sorting out the link for the book. I've started reading now that it's arrived!

Hiya, its a pretty safe bet that the finish of that era was spirit based (eg ethanol alcohol - usually without the methanol). Best thing to do is test it with some meths and see if it softens the finish, if so, it should come off ok. Scotchbrite (red or grey) is probably a better bet than steel wool as it is less likely to come apart. You will need a smallish stiff brush as well. I sometimes used TSP (trisodium phosphate found in Bunnings) on some of the older finishes but it is mixed with water and will raise the grain or even fur it if you are not careful. This way you will get pretty much all the old finish out but you will also have no patina left. (Not that you will with a removed Japanned finish anyway)

The finish where it is all grey looks to me like it has been sitting wet somewhere so to do anything you are really going to have to start from scratch.

The piece does not look that old or valuable and given the light colour of the base timber will be difficult to create a clean looking piece without doing some form of staining or re japanning and colouring to it. Unless you are good at getting the coloured parts right with traditional finishes you are probably best just going for a finish on the timber. If it was me I would clean it up as best as possible and get the condition of the timber into a good state by lightly sanding / scotch brighting the timber and then go for a lightish oak / walnut finish starting with a light diluted wash of light oak oil stain, followed by a couple of coats of shellac hand rubbed (its quicker than it sounds) and then adjusted with either a wipe on coat of black Japan (done lightly and sort of rubbed back off while still wet) or vandyke crystals in water.

The trick is once you have a base sealer coat of shellac you can mess around with oil or water based dyes to get the colour you want. Steer clear of spirit based stains like the feast watson ones unless you know what you are doing or you could end up with a freakish colour piece you can't fix.

Once you get you colour right you can go back over with a few coats of shellac to seal it all in. You can cheat by brushing the shellac with a very soft brush (dries really fast) and then buffing over with a rubber (essentially a cotton rag with wadding inside it) very lightly damped with meths and even a dab of baby oil.

Not sure if that helped but it works for me most times with general antique work. The quality of the finish is directly proportional to how much time and care you put into the prep and each stage. A good finish is something that is built step by step rather than just applied.

[Dukebox]

Ok guys, this is a little crazy.


started with metho and a course steel wool - no joy.


Applied paint stripper.... And NOTHING. It barely bubbled the surface. Regardless of how long I left I on, only some very small areas bubbled.

what could it be.... And better still.... How am i going to get it off.

[Dukebox]

Hi guys,

I've moved my thread to here

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f173/r...7/#post1613703

Now that the prep work has started. It'd be great to get your advice and help now that the work has started
!

[Dukebox]

So I'm getting very close to the Finishing components with this.

I am thinking of staining the top with various different stain colours to highlight the flowers etc.

My question is, If I was to use different colour stains:

1) is this possible
2) what would I be doing from a top coat perspective.

I need to read the polishers guide i've bought but I'm just trying to get some more hints re staining, sealing and finishing.

Cheers